Looks like the first step towards tyranny on this site.
I can understand if this is done because of some practical reason to avoid problems with the law or if artist is requesting to delete his content, but doing it because of ideological reasons means that it may be time to look for gurochan alternative.
because now nobody can know when their post will be deleted on the whom of the moderators arbitrary decision.
If this is going to be taken seriously, i woud suggest immediately delete entire g, f, s, fur and P2p boards because 99% of images there are infringements of copyright P2P is kinda all 100% piracy. so no need to track anything LOL
Only art and 3dcg boards are places where people share their own shit, everywhere else it is sharing of someone else shit.
I'm down with a rule against "bragging about it".
But it feels quite hypocritical to ban pirating Patreon content, but pirating anime, manga, and games is A-OK just because the artists won't come here to complain about it?
But WAIT… NO…!
Where should poor incel-onix
get his free stuff then?
Just as I thought you are felt in love with me, every time you post something is discussing my personality LOL
It is not like I need to get any free stuff here, we do not have that much of pay walled content anyway. But I woud be pretty happy if we had more.
It is all about attitude toward this situation as in that case I admit that gurochan can be officially declared dead after all those years it will become spam broad where various artists will post their promotional crap
It so not even a big problem if some post will get deleted but the way how it is said here is pretty scary because admin is essentially putting his fist in our face and making declaration that "if you disobey you fuckers I will crush you".
In the previous gurocnah reincarnation admin was a bit more polite as instead of making threats he was asking nicely providing reasons why it has to be like that and it was working more or less.
The big difference with Patreon content is that people who fund their work through Patreon might actually be forced to stop if the entirety of their work were easily available on gurochan. We might actually lose sources of good work. People who get their funding in other ways have more reliable sources of funding and so they probably don't need our assistance to keep them going.
We might think of it as a part of gurochan's collective contribution to their Patreon funding, and good artists are certainly worth supporting.
Of course I still love you ;)
But it's so much fun bullying
I just enjoy that at least some of
my predictions come true.
Even if just to a limited extend.
Happy to see an administrator take
charge and crack down on theft.
Not in it for meaningful discussions.
Buzzy, banging booze and
drinking hookers, ya know…
You are quite wrong, because patreon artists who paywall they content do not support gurochan much besides posting their promotional spam, so there is no point to care about them.
Also it is extremely hypocritical and plain unjust if reposting pictures of artists who do not ask money for their work is allowed without their permission but who try to make money and thus provide no value for community for some reason are protected. This is plain wrong.
Either you do not allow any posting without permission of the author or you allow everything.
Yes, I admit that if admins will decide to do it this way it is your victory.
But if this will be taken seriously gurochan will die.
> You are quite wrong, because patreon artists who paywall they content do not support gurochan much besides posting their promotional spam, so there is no point to care about them.
Yeah… Why to hell should they support
GC at all?
Seemingly GC is full of lazy poor
boys that just want 'free-beer'.
The problem of this platform is
It's a free-for-all DUMPSTER.
Honestly, I don't know why any reasonable
person in this world would even do the
admin/devops jobs on this site.
Does any of those ppl actually PAY Quexet?
I mean you can complain as much as you want
about tyranny but as long as you don't invest
something in return, you do not have any right
to complain about ANYTHING ;)
Think about it for a minute:
If the admin/staff someday just decides,
that it isn't worth the effort to put in the
work and resources to please a hungry
crowd full of leeches then…
… . . . *PUFF* → GC gone.
Babe, do you tink, that a person that works his/her
ass of for NO-PAY will be that sad about
'buhuhu… NO! Now I do not have to work for
free any more… Buhuhu… What should I just do
>>9462>Seemingly GC is full of lazy poor boys that just want 'free-beer'.
In fact you are totally right and that exactly the reason why such attitude will bring gurochan death.
This is the place for those poor lazy boys, not for rich paying customers. Gurochan users wants it to be free for all dumpster.
All gurochan is based on discussion and cooperation on how to get something you want without paying.
And people are contributing as much as they can. If someone requests some pay walled content someone may be so nice to provide it for us.
If you chase away those lazy boys there will be no gurochan left id admins will start deleting post of people who are actually contributing most, those people will stop or even leave entirely and there are not so many people who contribute.
If someone is kind enuogh to share content he bought we must all support that person and encourage that kind of behavior.
Yes we are grateful to site admins for what they are doing in general.
But in this situation there is just no reason for such policy.
Nothing what is happening here has any relation to this site in general it is just random threat coming out of nowhere.
>>9463>Babe, do you think, that a person that works his/her ass of for NO-PAY will be that sad about GC dying?
I kinda said it myself already and you confirmed it people like you do not care about gurochan, you rather want it dead.
Well, maybe you will achieve victory in that aspect too.
It's so much more fun now that
I do not care any more about
THIS part of the guro community
The only intriguing question that
drums my head is:
Why for god sake is anyone stupid
enough to actually WORK for this
type of human-trash FOR-FREE?
HAHAHAHA… this is ridicolous!
Seriously, I am almost pissing my pants
because of laughter.
If I was admin on this Dumpster-board,
I would just… *PUFF*, you know.
To admins/staff/devs and moderators who
might read this:
>>> ARE YOU STUPID? <<<
Is it fun,
getting exploited by some lazy ass
Just set up a pay-per-month site,
contact and deploy creators for exclusive
advertisement-treatment and shared revenue,
migrate everyone willing to support over
to that platform and then just take a
deep fat shit on the leftovers.
Just pop gurochan off the web.
Let the cheapstakes go to reddit,
where they will get stuffed with tracking
cookies and advertisement.
>[..]maybe you will achieve victory in that aspect too.
HAH! Nope, my sweetheart,
THIS 'victory' would be all yours and yours alike.
I'm just enjoying the show and look
forward to the outcry that will flood
>>9455>but pirating anime, manga, and games is A-OK just because the artists won't come here to complain about it?
I think the difference here is "ease of access". A lot of manga that is posted here is simply unavailable in bookstores in the West, and even if a series is licensed, they might be out of print. Anime BD sets are incredibly expensive as well. Guro games from Japan are also quite difficult to access via legal means, as the creators often only sell to other Japanese.
First of all, i don't really understand the current need for this discussion. It's not like the site gets flooded with pirated content right now, the p2p board is pretty much dead. This whole discussion only exists because of one single artist. I haven't read all of that discussion and didn't really care about it, but i went over the last two threads about his work, and it looks like the situation was pretty much this: This artist was pissing of some of his fans by asking for more and more money while being very unreliable, and at some point some paying fans got pissed off to the point where they refused to pay any more, and when somebody asked for the stuff for free, some of those fans gladly complied. And then later his patreon with all his work got deleted and the artist was asking for his fans to pay for his stuff again on a different site, so here we go again. Maybe this isn't the whole truth, i'm not involved in this thing so i might not have all the facts, but the way i see it, if the artist hadn't pissed off some of his fans that much, nothing would have happened. Obviously there are different opinions about this. My personal opinion: There are many artists who are kinda unreliable. If they produce their stuff for free, that's fine - if i'm not paying anything, i have to take what i can get and shouldn't complain too much when i'm not getting what i want. But once an artist starts taking money, there are some expectations he should meet, and if he doesn't, he shouldn't be surprised if his customers aren't happy about it, and sharing his stuff for free is the most logical outcome of that situation.
I don't think the admins need to get involved in that, and i really don't think there need to be any policy updates about copyrighted content on this site. Afaik this has never been an issue, it was always allowed, but as is said, the site doesn't get flooded with pirated content either. This is not about people systematically going after patreon artists to share their stuff for free, this is about paying customers being pissed off about a single artist and for that reason sharing his stuff for free.
I wholeheartedly support this policy. The guro community needs to be a lot less trashy than it is now, with fans stealing work from the VERY FEW talented creators that are willing to do work for us.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. We need to feed into the system so that we can continue to reap the rewards from it. It'll be a sad day when there are no good new artists doing guro because they've realized how cancerous the fans are.
Then what are you doing here?
All creators who live here are doing stuff for free, and they do not get even a fraction of the support given to greedy creators.
I spend most of my time over on other sites, actually.
I write stories, and I do so for free. But that's because I have the ability to make money elsewhere. I'm not an obnoxious NEET who thinks other people owe me something, or I have the right to steal their content.
>>9498>I spend most of my time over on other sites, actually.
I think see already can see some pattern here.
>>9498>I spend most of my time over on other sites, actually.
Hey, cool. I'm new to the online community here. Could you name a few sites other than guro-chan? I would be very very pleased to know some place else than this one and reddit.
Yea, funnily enough its more fun to spend time with folks that are a little less cancerous than the attention whores here that bitch about paid shit.>>9500
That'll depend a little on your specific interests. Some good ones are Pixiv, Dolcettish, Furaffinity, deviantart.
Being honest with you, I see a point from both. I however do have to give it to the free content people. Most of the artist who use this platform generally do so to promote their own website and then cease posting here. I'm not going to name them directly but there is a correlation with them and Patreon (which is now trying to have them banned) and you can see for yourself which have Patreon and have gone barren on this platform (even elder members who have been here before most of us). They post here to give a "taste" and then forget about us or post strictly to their platforms when they grow a bit. Also, the people who post the content have paid for the content and likely won't deter anyone who still wants to pay. Believe me, the artist have well more artwork the people who release the content don't also "grab".
I used to think that it would hurt Gurochan due to copyright and all that, but I was wrong. It actually brings in more people and allows amazing content to which we wouldn't have seen anyway. The artist themselves most times don't come on here anyway.
Even though it is out of my hands, I would strongly advise against it.
I hope what this post really means is not a policy change, but more a reminder not to carry things too far, since at some point the admins might be forced to step in to protect the site - i don't think the site can openly support pirating content, but i also think as long as this isn't getting completely out of hand, there is no need to enforce anything.
For me, this site has always been about sharing stuff for free. The heart of this site are the content creators who create their stuff for free, and Onix is one of the most active creators we have. These artists also inspire other guro fans to try to produce some stuff themselves, that's what's keeping this community alive. Those content creators who are taking money are not really making content for "us", they are making content for the small subset of guro fans who are willing to pay them. I don't really see a reason for me to protect their interests.
I will never pay any money for guro content. It's not really about the money, it's more about the loss of anonymity - money always leaves a trail, so it's simply not an option. And it's also about principles at this point. I'm interested in a community where everybody shares their stuff for free, and that's not just a wild idea, this is how this community has worked for a long time. If artists stop posting on this site for free so they can make money with their art on other sites instead, it's their decision and i can't stop them, but i definitely don't have a reason to help them with that either.
These two posts are exactly what I was talking about when I said how our community sucks. You realize we are thought of as worse than furries? Can you guess why? Maybe it's because we're so entitled that we take the idea of artists posting their works for free and turn that into "I'm gonna steal your art and post it because I say it should be free". There are only a few good artists out there willing to cater to our likes, especially those of us with particular interests within the community. These guys tend to go dark after a while, and its easy to see why. The people they try to cater to are so toxic that they drive creators away and then bitch about not getting free shit without stealing it.
NEWSFLASH: There's no such thing as a free lunch. Every now and again artists post good free art, but if you want this community to thrive as more than a bunch of low-tier creators jerking off over their insistence on free art, you need to shell out, or at least respect the wishes of those who do this for a living.
By the way, what does Onix create? A quick ctrl+f of all the major boards yields nothing.
Can you think of people who have had a Patreon that still actively post on here?
I'm not trying to be rude but really think hard and tell me of some people who have another means (Patreon, antoer Website, etc) who still post here regularly. Then, go back and compare it to those who post once every few months or so with some (barred, censored generally) content who has dropped from this site to promote their own. Also, if you really want get analytical, follow their pages or where they are receiving montary compensation and see how much content (again, generally barred/censored especially on Patreon) you can see and their correlating dates and cross reference them to some/all of the post made to this website. I'm not going to list names but I have done this and found Then taking it a step further, compare how much "grabbed" artwork there is posted by some users here in comparison to how much artwork hasn't been grabbed/posted. You will likely see one or two commisons and they will range from old to new. It's not really worth it fighting unless someone is being boastful and attracting unneccesary attention. Are you really going to tell me you are going to go out of your way to not look at the artworks posted and not going to enjoy them? You wouldn't want someone else who may not have access to it anyway to enjoy them? I mean being honest, of all the things Gurochan has had go wrong (lord knows I've been around for and helped through all that) this seems to be the most petty/trivial. I mean I appreciate your opinion, but is it really that serious of an issue? I was on that side (your side) once and had to really consider if it was worth fighting or not considering the overall safety of the site. I can't really say there is any true ground to persue.
Just take up my challenge of doing that and evaluate. Go through the threads (alot of them older *hint* and go to their secondary and tell me what you see. I'll be here to chat.
Hi, everyone, so. I'm gonna keep this simple.
Recently, an artist on /art/ complained their art was being taken from here, gurochan, and posted elsewhere, exhentai. They said they had reached out to exhentai, but did not get a response. They wanted their art work taken down, but had no recourse. Their experience led them to feel like their privacy had been breached, and they will no longer post on gurochan or, ostensibly, anywhere.
Exhentai is supposed to enforce a Do Not Post list, they seem not to. We may be nearly rule free, but we should atleast try to remain basic respect for our artists through our rules.
We don't right now. We may not be obligated to respect the rights of artists on other websites, there's no real rights on the internet. It's anarachy.
But we do have the ability to create those rights in our own little bubble, here. We shouldn't do to other artists what exhentai did to ours, atleast.
Aritsts likely leave this website because it's incredibly unstable. It's also often mean spirited. I've seen:
-Artists paywalled content being targeted, such that discussion about weather or not they should paywall spams every thread their art is posted in
-Artists threads being swarmed with arguments and hateful comments because they paywall
-Artists who refuse a request being "told off," screamed at by the person who wants free artwork
-Artists who refuse requests as a stated in the first post getting tons of people requesting free art and few other comments.
Having spoken to artists, they tend to have some sort of bad experience and then feel unwanted and stop posting. Artists WANT to advertise their works everywhere they can, they WANT to participate in this community, but it's easy to make them feel like we don't want them here. And when a couple common posters do that, they listen. They just stop posting.
You got is a bit wrong, because the reason why it was posted was because gurochan died and it was kind of attempt to save that content. The person who uploaded it to exhentai thought that those pictures will be lost forever otherwise.
It was actually not so much about artwork itself as it was about how that gallery was tagged. What unfortunately ended as doxing.
There are some other threads on gurochan where people are trying to somehow recover works of artists who stopped posting and deleted everything from internet.
I think it is serious moral issue by itself if creator is allowed to irreversibly destroy his own work or if that happens we should ignore his will and preserve it at any cost.>>9513>>Artists WANT to advertise their works
Advertising something is not participation that is, using internet terminology, better known as spamming. And spam is the only universally hated crime on internet.
If artist is really participating by posting real content he is usually treated well. I don't see anyone asking them to post their other works for free either. But artists who post "trailer" and end with "pay to see the rest" are just irritating.
Finally there is nothing wrong to take down works if their creator nicely requests that (preferably with some warning so that everyone could download that at first) but actively deleting posts without artist request is a bit too much.
Another basic unwritten rule on internet forums is that if some creator is participating in this forum properly, his desires are taken into account. If he just comes, requesting something he can be safely told to go back to where he came from. He is not "our" artist he is just some random irrelevant stranger.
Rights do not come for free you have to pay for your right in some way. If artist is paywalling his work he is totally useless to people who are not willing to pay so there is absolutely no reason to respect his desires. To be respected he has somehow prove that by doing it, we get more value than by not doing it.
Of course people who are willing to pay may complain because that creator may be providing some value for them if they assume that artist is selling his work at the lower price than their value.
But this is actually the main question which side you choose. You can't have both. It is similar to Linux community where any commercial or closed code is extremely unwelcome. While non GPL companies label open source as "cancer" or "virus" and hate it just as much.
So this is an issue of an artist feeling like they have been breached? That is more understandable, and I could see why that would be an issue. Why, however would we have to pay for exhentai's mistake? Not trying to pry to much but, it is kind of hard to understand how they would relate to here(are they worried about over exposure, etc?).
Also, on the paywall issue, what are they really posting here if they literally come here to give snippets at best and leave months on end until they remember us again? And, what would they be losing compared to the artwork the others don't post. Generally, they post two to three commisions compared to like 10 or more comissions the artist have sitting up unseen and unenjoyed.
Also, how many artist have you been in touch with who have had this issue? It would be interesting to see what they have to say on the matter (in anon mode).
Didn't want to make the thread above to long:
If someone is doxing this individual, that is a severe problem and it is understandable to delete their artwork or saving and reuploading the art work so it couldn't be traced back to them (done by this site or others). If they require help I will try my best to assist them.
On request, the artist has a vivid right to decline any request and if harassed, should be able to report it and have the moderators themselves warn those individual to cease or be banned (along with having other supporters of the artist thoroughly chew them a new one).
Lastly, as a request, maybe a like button or some means to show appreciation to an artist should be added to this site. Some people don't post due to privacy reasons, not really seeing a need to, or simply don't know what to say. I've encouraged quite a few artist and inspired them to start channels and grow, while also pointing out some mistakes and ideas how to handle them :). I remember one artist in particular that was gonna give everyone a heart attack because he posted his first animation on another artist page and has now grown to a full fledged artist with wonderful concepts. Encouragement can go a very long way and I encourage you all to tell all the artist here how much you appreciate them contributing to our little niche. Also head over to feed back keep that idea going. I saw it being requested and will be backing it :)
Alright. Okay. Fine. Let's debate.
>>You got is a bit wrong, because the reason why it was posted was because gurochan died and it was kind of attempt to save that content. The person who uploaded it to exhentai thought that those pictures will be lost forever otherwise. It was actually not so much about artwork itself as it was about how that gallery was tagged. What unfortunately ended as doxing.
The detail I got wrong doesn't matter, then. The point is that an artist was so negatively affected by have no way to remove his artwork from another website, that he had to stop drawing guro entirely and felt unsafe. We at gurochan don't have a way for artists to request their work be taken down. Now its willfully ignorant of us to not offer any rights to artists on this website.
>> There are some other threads on gurochan where people are trying to somehow recover works of artists who stopped posting and deleted everything from internet. I think it is serious moral issue by itself if creator is allowed to irreversibly destroy his own work or if that happens we should ignore his will and preserve it at any cost.
A moral issue? A moral issue isn't just anything that inconveniences you personally. Morality is based in goodness, goodness is defined subjectively. My personal definition of goodness is acting with empathy. In a situation like this where we have to choose between two parties: An artist or an artists fans, the empathetic choice is to give the artist the ability to do what he wants with his art. An artists fan, if his art is lost, will most likely forget that artist within hours or days, and has many opportunities to fall in love with new art, they have their memories of feelings, they'll retain the feeling the art gave them and find new sources of joy. They also already had the opportunity to save the art. It is completely fair if art that was given for free is suddenly lost without warning. It hurts, but it's not unfair. Seeing it in the first place was a gift. The artist is having a different experience. An artist, posting guro art, may want to delete because their art style has been recognized and they are in danger of losing their job, they may have gone through something bad and drawn vent art, and now feel attractions about their pictures. Art is a piece of a person, there's a chance an artist who needs to delete their work is suffering greatly.
So again, in terms of morals, if you want to show empathy then the artist, not the artists fan, needs be protected and preferred.
>> Advertising something is not participation that is, using internet terminology, better known as spamming. And spam is the only universally hated crime on internet. If artist is really participating by posting real content he is usually treated well. I don't see anyone asking them to post their other works for free either. But artists who post "trailer" and end with "pay to see the rest" are just irritating.
First off, advertising guro is participation. If someone comes to gurochan with a fat wallet, full balls, and 15 minutes and they see a post for purchasable artwork, they still get what they came to the website for. They'll still come back to gurochan for more. Who told you you got to decide what counts and doesn't count as participation? Just because something irritates you, that doesn't make it "not participation." Your posts on free art kinda irritate me (sorry) but you're sure as fuck participating here, I'd never say otherwise. Posts should be on topic but I don't care much weather or not a post delivers on the full premise. When I said advertise, I meant artists posting in /art/ with links to the patreon for the threads opening post. But if someone straight out advertised for something they wanted to sell in their thread in /art/ it's not like I'd give a fuck. If it works, "MONEY IN GURO! YAAAAAY" If no one buys it "THE ADVERTISER FELL TO THE BOTTOM OF THE THREADLIST! YAAAAAY" If it becomes spam central around here and everything is an ad for an off site service, sure, I'd make up some new rules and be right with you on it. But that's an imaginary gurochan I've personally never seen before. And I've been here constantly for more than a decade under multiple names. Double posting threads and posting non related content are still spam you can report that we will delete, so worrrying about advertisement spam which doesn't exist and probably won't, and if it does will be one post out of every 30 that can be ignored, is… Like… Making up problems to complain about.
>>Finally there is nothing wrong to take down works if their creator nicely requests that
>>(preferably with some warning so that everyone could download that at first) but actively deleting posts without artist request is a bit too much.
I disagree. I don't think there should have to be a warning, we don't know the reasons an artist might request their work removed, so we'll act swiftly and remorselessly. Giving people a warning to save it just giving them a chance to download and repost. It would probably exacerbate the issue for the artist. As for actively deleting posts without requests, I'm so so on that point. I am cautious not to delete anything that isn't hurting anyone in general, unless asked by the creator or poster.
>>Another basic unwritten rule on internet forums is that if some creator is participating in this forum properly, his desires are taken into account. If he just comes, requesting something he can be safely told to go back to where he came from. He is not "our" artist he is just some random irrelevant stranger.
"Oh, your art style got recognized and you're gonna lose your job if we don't drop it? Too bad you aren't around here posting more art, I don't know your name." What a fucked up way of thinking. No, I'm not gonna turn away artists that I don't recognize as having contributed before. I'm not going to refuse to apply rules to those who aren't participating enough. We're part of a larger whole, the guro community, and as our name travels around it with a negative connotation, an incredibly small pool of people we have access to shrinks ever more. I don't want to be good just to gurochanners, I want to be good to guro. What goes around comes around and I want what comes around to us to be good.
>> Rights do not come for free you have to pay for your right in some way. If artist is paywalling his work he is totally useless to people who are not willing to pay so there is absolutely no reason to respect his desires. To be respected he has somehow prove that by doing it, we get more value than by not doing it.
Alright, well first of all: Pay me.
You haven't earned your way to gurochan, I have the ability to ban you and I don't even really like you (sorry.) You didn't do anything to have your right to be here, you're here because it's a platform we offer for free. Rights, here, are free, rights are imaginary concepts we come up with and decide on. A right is a service promised to a people by those with the power to enforce it, and we don't have any rules here about having to earn any of our rights.
Second of all: Paywalling artists are users of this website too.
They have no obligation to us, and they don't have to prove themselves to us. They don't gain jack shit by proving themselves to us and can still come post here freely like anybody else. You're acting as though we offer them something for free work when we don't. Respect isn't worth jack when nobody around here even says please and thank you regardless. Respect? Do you mean being drowned in an endless swarm of requests that follow you to every website you post on? They have to prove ourselves to us so that… what… we'll enforce rules for them? If they need nudes taken down or something, that's extortion. They have to prove themselves to us so that… We'll do what? We don't do jack shit for artists and expect them to enjoy us ripping them off, and now we wanna start telling artists "Be part of our community, or else we won't enforce the rules?" You're saying we have nothing to lose by refusing to help, I'm saying THEY have nothing to gain by participating in our website. Someones gotta be the first to extend their hand and it should be the platform that hosts the art, not the artist.
>>Of course people who are willing to pay may complain because that creator may be providing some value for them if they assume that artist is selling his work at the lower price than their value. But this is actually the main question which side you choose. You can't have both. It is similar to Linux community where any commercial or closed code is extremely unwelcome. While non GPL companies label open source as "cancer" or "virus" and hate it just as much.
First of all people who are willing to pay don't fucking care if their shit is shared for free, they're not LOSING anything if you get art. The money they put in is gone and the digital artwork they recieve has no resale value. They want to support artists they love, and respect artists for offering a product in return for that art. The reason they'd be upset with thieves is because thieves stop their favorite artists from becoming self sufficient. All these patreons have little loading bars and tiered lists "Once I get here, I can make this game!" "Once I reach X, I'll be paying my rent with art!" And when someone steals, they stop alllll that progress in the artists life and it hurts for that artists fans.
Moving on, Ok here's the key thing about the open source metaphor. OPEN SOURCE shit needs to be open source because COMMUNITIES OF COMPUTER SCIENTISTS BUILD UPON WORK TOGETHER.
WE DON'T do FUCK ALL round here but circle jerk and share porn, the Open source argument is such bull. It makes sense in computer science but the same logic can't be applied to blame strangers for having the SKILL and ABILITY to make money off of their craft.
Porns not scientific research, it's not firewall software. Nobody benefits from stolen porn. You just fuck over the few people actually being productive who are spending their valuable hours making the shit you love, you fuck yourself out of more porn because these artists become increasingly more isolated to protect themselves and they fail to make a living on it because of all the theft, and you probably even fuck over the do nothing circle jerkers with a gigabyte of porn who get one more pointless endorphin rush to fuck over their brain chemistry even more, keeping them from even holding down a part time job without taking bathroom breaks to masturbate.
Look, I wanna get where you're coming from but porns not water and porn thieves aren't robin hood. No ones being saved, it looks to me like thieves are just ripping money out of the system so that they can feel good about themselves instead of the artists. I get that there's to many subscription model artists for anyone to be expected to buy them all but I would really just prefer to hear that. Not all this "open source" "freedom of speech" stuff. If it's too much to buy and you want it for free because you can't afford it all, that's shitty but we provide a place for that here and atleast it would be honest. What I find ridiculous is the idea that YOUR RIGHTS are being encroached upon by anyone. That you have a right to any and all artwork produced, and those that would stop you from viewing it are somehow being unfair to you…
That's just not true at all. It's because the internet is anarchy that you get all this free artwork. No rights, rules, or morals exist, it's just you taking advantage of a lack of regulation to steal. Feel free to do so but I don't see how you've spun up the idea that you're a good person for doing it.
Couldn't have said it better myself, nicely done my man.
Sadly pirating is inevitable, all I want to say is, please, to those who receive the pirated goods, at least show your respect, and properly thank the artist by means of liking their page, or even supporting them when you get the opportunity to.
The problem is here most people take it for granted, and even complain when people don't pirate PAID content.
It's just contradictory to pirate paid content, you obviously like their art, but pirating them discourages them to continue the already niche art they are drawing.
It may not matter for big artists since they rake in thousands and won't even notice people pirating, but Guro is already such an obscure niche, why kill it even more? The number of talented artists that draw guro, I can count on both hands…
Some people seem to equate pirating guro to being a freedom fighter, or something equally fucking retarded.
Do they think GOOD guro art just pops out from thin air?
Before now I had assumed that having a p2p board and just being a chan in general meant the community here had given its implicit blessing to piracy. When scrolling past the rare discussion on the topic both sides seemed to be taking very extreme stances on what I considered largely a non-issue. I haven't really done my due diligence to read every post in here but I thought I'd lay out a couple of thoughts anyway.
People with disposable income to spare will share that income with content creators who create content they enjoy. People without, wont. Pirates haven't done anything to "deserve" access to content, but having that access also doesn't indicate enormous amounts of potential lost revenue. Some people absolutely would pay for content they wouldn't otherwise if it had been released from behind a paywall, and their are absolutely some paying customers that have only found artists through pirated content.
It's ridiculous for people to act like their entitled to someone else's paywalled work, but I feel its also silly to get up in arms if it does get shared.
On a different note, it seems silly to remove content, once its out its out and removing it just makes it a pain to find again. Several times recently I've tried to find more work from a artist only to find that they've scoured their pixiv completely. I haven't really thought about this point as much, and am mostly just airing a tangentially related frustration.
As a paying customer, I get irritated out of frustration from the disrespect to the artists, not because of my own elitism.
Even if knowing it'll get shared for free, I'll still support the artist.
Thing is, people here are ungrateful as fuck, and feel so entitled to owning paid content, like what the fuck? Who wants to work for free lol
I bet more than half of the people viewing the pirated content dont even drop a like or comment on the artist's page. That's what annoys me.
Guro artists are one of us, I don't like to see them being mistreated. In the end, it's our loss, as said before, this only fuels the artist to leave this scene faster, we don't want that do we?
Certainly it's not worth saving that $10 over seeing the artist quit drawing for good?
It's not like artists don't release any of their paid content at all, most of their pages are full of previews, freebies and teasers. Releasing those extra pages won't Garner any more paid customers than their regular freemiums…
Of course there's some, but I firmly believe that they suffer from a loss.
Anyways, thanks for being mature unlike some others.
>Rights do not come for free you have to pay for your right in some way.
Let me ask YOU, what YOU paid,
to deserve the FREE stuff you are carving
>Alright. Okay. Fine. Let's debate.
It's a TRAP!
Overall, there is no point in
Debating the 'free-stuff'-fraction at all.
They will always be coming up with newer
and more stupid arguments to defend their
'right' they don't possess.
I agree that they do not have that
monetary impact by pirating the artworks,
due to the fact, that there are decent ppl
out there and pirates were never customers
in the first place.
One method that worked pretty well to
eliminate a majority of pirates is to set
up a paywall surrounding the PLATFORM that
provides the content and not the content
If such a paywall is 'high' enough, many
cheapstakes/pirates are immediately drawn
away, not even knowing what it is they want
Simply lock them out.
This would lead to paid forums, and other
One of the benefits would be that on such
infrastructure there are no such toddlers
that need to be debated about stupid
topics like 'pirating == freedom fighting'
I agree that this community needs to treat artists better than it has in some instances.
When artists advertise on this site with paywalled content, i would be happier if they did it in a way where they aren't starting a story and then asking for money to see the rest, but instead just give some unrelated examples of their work that can be enjoyed without seeing the paywalled stuff. But nevertheless, i don't think bashing the artists for the way they do things is a good idea. It's not against the rules on this site for artists to advertise for their paywalled stuff, and it shouldn't be either. And if you don't like these posts, just ignore them. Guro is a very wide field, there are lots of threads full of content i don't like on this site. So i just ignore those threads, it's easy. I don't pay the artists, but i don't complain in their threads either when they are just here to advertise for their payed stuff, i just ignore them.
Requests for artists: I'm mostly on this site for one artist and i'm posting a lot of requests in his threads. But i always make it clear those are just ideas, if he likes them and does them i'm happy, and if he doesn't, that's ok too. I think that's the way requests should be posted, never as a demand. You can demand something once you pay an artist, if you don't you can just post your ideas and hope he likes them enough to work on them. We recently had a discussion in that thread because he ended a very long story in a way many of his fans including myself didn't like at all. And i think we handled that discussion just fine.
There is one thing in this whole discussion that the anti-pirating side has to understand: People who aren't paying for art won't change that if the content wouldn't be available for free. Most of the stuff behind paywalls is still safe behind those paywalls, it's not like this site gets flooded with pirated content. If the artists aren't getting payed it's not because someone stole their content, it's because there just isn't enough of a customer base willing to pay for that content. And all that arguing how these artists deserve our money won't change that. Some don't pay because they don't have the money. Some don't pay because they fear the loss of anonymity once money gets involved. And some don't pay because compared to the content that's produced for free, the paywalled content just isn't worth any money for them.
You can't get the people who don't have the money to pay, and you can't get the people who want to stay anonymous to pay. The only way to get the people who are happy with the free content to pay is to take that free content away. And since most of that isn't even pirated content, that idea would essentially mean to take away the platform where artists can post their stuff for free - so close down this site and every other free site. It should be pretty obvious that this would damage the community far more than any decision on pirated content.
Overall one thing is pretty clear to me: When an artist asks for his stuff to be deleted, there shouldn't be any argument, it should just be done, without any further warning if he asks for that. But i have to say, it's kinda naive to expect that to happen without any issue if you are an artist: Once you have posted your art, it's out there, deleting it from one site won't delete it from the internet. I have seen the discussion among artists on a different site - access to that site is free but not exactly easy. And the content they posted for free would usually end up on a few different pay sites so other people could make money with it. The general consensus among those artists was that they just had to live with that and nothing could be done about it.
Without any request from the artist to delete his work, i don't think there is currently any need to delete stuff proactively. Certainly not if it's just a few pictures here and there, you could even argue that those are additional advertisements for these artists. There could be an argument when a sizeable collection gets leaked, even though that would almost certainly not just show up on this site and not on any other site. But i don't think this is even an issue at the moment. Just like the scenario with artists flooding this site with advertisements is imaginery, there also aren't any threads where recently pirated collections are posted to this site.>>9528
This site exists because the community wants a free and anonymous platform. There are already lots of paysites out there. You are essentially suggesting to close this site, because you don't want a free platform to exist. This goes against everything this community wants, and that includes the artists. For example the artist reg mentioned on art who stopped posting after his art was shared on a different site - that wasn't about money, that was about a loss of anonymity. And anonymity doesn't work with a paysite at all.
Guro artists often care much more about their anonymity than about any money. And the same goes for other guro fans. That's one reason why it's harder to make money in this genre than in other genres, pirating has nothing to do with that - pirated content exists in every genre.
>>9523>Morality is based in goodness, goodness is defined subjectively. My personal definition of goodness is acting with empathy.
It is a bit diffrent issue:
Because you are seeing artist as most important thing in this situation. Essentially you claim that people must worship them and serve them for no reason just because of empathy.
But the situation is diffrent on another side:
Artist is just as important as source of some kind of of content, the only thing we care about is how much of that content he is making, if he decides to stop making it he has zero value to us and no need to care about him at all because in reality we only care about his content not about him. Just like in the GPL community once you release your work that work becomes independent from you and you have no control of what will be done with it.
And looks like we have diffrent ideas about that. Because you care about people, I care about their work.
>I disagree. I don't think there should have to be a warning, we don't know the reasons an artist might request their work removed, so we'll act swiftly and remorselessly. Giving people a warning to save it just giving them a chance to download and repost. It would probably exacerbate the issue for the artist.
I did not expect you to agree but by saying it as "warning" I had in mind something like mentioning that the artist is requesting for this work to be removed before it actually gets removed and then delaying this process for a day or so. Not that "WARNING WARNING, This post will be deleted in 3 days Please store it's contents on your HDD" LOL
>Alright, well first of all: Pay me.
Do you at least have some public bank account or something to receive money?
Considering me, I believe I am paying somewhat with my work which is absolutely free. Other people are paying with their work of digging up various pictures of other artists and posting them.
And in fact if you need anything from me besides money I am totally willing to do it for you.
Yes, sure you can do whatever you want as site admin and the only thing I can do here is to express my opinion.
>If it becomes spam central around here and everything is an ad for an off site service, sure, I'd make up some new rules and be right with you on it.
I never noticed anything that happening in /art/ but it is pretty common in /3dcg/ where artists come, post few pictures from the story and then tell to come to their patreon page to see the rest of the story.
there is no need to delete those threads or ban those artists for spamming but other users should be allowed to express their dislike for that kind of behavior in any way they like.
>We don't do jack shit for artists and expect them to enjoy us ripping them off, and now we wanna start telling artists "Be part of our community, or else we won't enforce the rules?"
It is not about enforcing rules. The message is that if you don't care about us we do not care about you.
Just like artist are not obligated to provide anything to us we are not obligated to remove anything either.
of course we can do it if artist is nicely asking and giving good reason or you expect that he will come to this community but we are not morally obligated to do it.
>Someones gotta be the first to extend their hand and it should be the platform that hosts the art, not the artist.
If that is true then you should not care if that art comes from artist himself or from someone who just ripped it from his pay site ;) It is same art after all ;)
>First of all people who are willing to pay don't fucking care if their shit is shared for free, they're not LOSING anything if you get art. The money they put in is gone and the digital artwork they recieve has no resale value.
Again It is diffrent issue:
Because people who are willing to pay see paywalled stuff as something that has value unlike people who do not pay and thus all stuff behind paywall has no value for them at all.
If I do not pay I see no difference if artist who is asking money for his work decides to quit or continue, because I do not get access to his work either way his existence as artist is totally worthless to me.
If I am paying customer I am willing to keep that artist to be able to buy his stuff in future as well. This is why I will try to support that artist.
The goal is diffrent in both cases: Paying customers want to be able to BUY that stuff, while not paying fans want to get it for free.
nonpaying fans may even have more incentive to make that artist quit, because that way there is more chance that his works will be released in public by someone or that his place will be taken by someone else.
>Look, I wanna get where you're coming from but porns not water and porn thieves aren't robin hood.
And you totally didn't get it. Because For me it is not about stealing something, it is about basic principles. My ideology is totally diffrent from those "thieves"
Of course I can't do anything much by myself, but my goal is to make it impossible to live of of art of any kind of creative sell art or any kind of intellectual property.
Ideally I would prefer to get rid of all professional artists and creators and destroy that kind of job entirely so that amateurs had more space and incentive to work and express themselves without being crushed by professionals.
(on the long term I woud even want same to happen to every job. When you will be unable to get paid for absolutely anything you do. So you either do not do it at all or do it for other reasons than getting paid)
Compare that to open source Linux community. Imagine if we managed to destroy Microsoft and all paid software then the only choice woud be to use open source. People woud not be able to live without any computers at all, so they would still invest in open source. If windows or any paid OS did not exist linux woud have developed much faster. because all that funding woud have gone into Linux instead of Microsoft pockets.
Same here: if professional creators will disappear that is not a big deal, It will facilitate more amateur works. It was the reason why I got into that myself, I just got tired to beg other artists to do what I want and started making my own stuff. I have same recommendation for everyone else: if you can't get what you want make your own and this is way more satisfying that jerking off on someones else work. With modern technology everyone can do that and it is super easy. If more people will start doing it there may be even chance for cooperation and turning porn into open source when one picture or story is being produced by multiple people.
Also if paying customers will lose all their creators they will be forced to provide more support to those who work for free. Instead of buying content they will be forced to commission it and make it public.
Of course I do not expect you to agree with what I want, but please keep in mind that I am not just some typical hypocrite who whines about price or lack of money. I can buy those works I just refuse in principle. I am against this entire system of capitalist relationships. Otherwise I woud be silent and just look around for pirated content. It is about freedom and type of relationships after all, not about lack of money.
Fortunately I see that people on the gurochan somewhat share my idea, and despise those who are trying to make money by denying access to their works. Pirates are just conveniently helping my cause in tearing apart this system, making artists understand that attempt to make money that way, is pretty futile task, so other models are required. Regulation will not really help much, it will just bring on more hate and make this system break even faster.
————————>>9527>Thing is, people here are ungrateful as fuck, and feel so entitled to owning paid content, like what the fuck? Who wants to work for free lol
Being grateful for what? What that paywall artist is giving to us to be grateful for?
And yes people want to work for free especially when they are not allowed to work for money. They even fight each other for that right to work for free.
>It's not like artists don't release any of their paid content at all, most of their pages are full of previews, freebies and teasers.
You suggest to be grateful for preview pages and teasers? Maybe if you are masochist and love being teased then yes LOL
If artist is providing lots of freebies people are usually pretty grateful to him.
Well Im in a car right now, so I cant type a full message like before. I probably wont get the time to though so Ill say what I can right now.
First of all, I understand what youre saying, I disagree but I still understand it. I get where were fundamentally different now, and I sont expect to make exceptional amounts of progress in terms of getting you to cincede that theivery is bad or changing your mind in the ethics of theivery.
If I understand this correcrly, you have an ideal vision of a pure artist, someone who works for free out of passion. You see pirating as "making space" for this type of artist… however I dont see how.
Artists who make works for free arent hurt by those who sell works, first off. People consume all the free work they can, and artist creating free work arent pushed out of spaces for doing it. Were talking about dislike pirating as a practice and an unavoidable reality, I dont see where the ideal free working creative and community oriented artist comes into it.
Paid artists dont stop free artists from working. They can just co exist. Paid artists dont even impeede on free artists ability to get attention– the currency of the internet. If you want art to be free, and you want a greater community of free artists to work together, you can simply quietly co exist along side paid artists building that community.
So pirated works dont help or hinder you in that. Infact, they likely hurt. If people are viewing pirated works, theyre going into places where everything is free and splitting the attention between creatives, free artists and piraters. Ideally, people who dont care weather their work is pirated or not as long as its good would be intrracting largely with free artists, who would benefit from the motivation of that viewership, would have the freedom to share site wide, would have universally better viewership, would have better conversation and community… Commenters on a site where all the work posted is intended to be free would comment knowing theres a much better chance their comment would be read by the original poster. Or knowing they can go to the source and share thier love of work.
I just dont see how stealing premium and private works help you, except in that it sabotages paid artists.
If the goal is to literally sabotage paid artists with the intent yhat they will be unable tobe profitable so that they will release all their works for free– I just see artists leaving guro. Its not like theyre going to look at the community that took away the oppurtunity for this to be their job and then begin to make them free stuff.
An artists passion and need to create is secondary to their pride as humans, theyre not gonna work for the people that ruined their chance to make hundreds or thousands. If you want to destrot the capitalist aspects of something, I dont think you do that by superceeding the market. Thats still just dumpster diving in my opinion.
You have to be self sufficient and come up witb a better market and economy of your own. Pirates are like hippies that still ultimately need capitalism to survive because they loiter at the backs of super markets and wait for kindly garbage people to feed them… the alrernative is hippies that raise trees on every street corner, making free food on public land, taking from the market with the ultimate goal of making a better marketplace where goods are exhanged without money, ideally becoming so robust that the market fails or only serves the well off.
In this case, anarchy rules already, people pay for art work by their own free will out of love, and all people are allowed in all spaces.
I still dont really get where this idea that stealing is good for the community of people who make free works comes from. Just let sleeping dogs lie. The market shouldnt push on the free artists and the free artists shouldnt push on the market. Its healthier if people who make works for free try to undercut the market by making various high quality works, rather than literally sabotage the market with piracy.
Again. I understand that piracy is a large part of our media here and that it is unavoidable, Im just still not quite seeing how piracy is "good"
People would rather see previews and freemiums than nothing at all lol, the artists that paywall actually do contribute even if you aren't paying.
So there's value in that naturally, don't tell me you rather not see or know of the artist than skip out on some pictures they drew from their paid content.
So people would be a masochist for reading mangas or novels that are known to be discontinued? Not how it works
No I meant being grateful when they view the pirated content.
Obviously you seem sophisticated so not you, but many others here feel so entitled and bitch when people don't want to show them said paid content.
And upon receiving them, they praise the pirate as some kind of hero, and the artist gets not a single word of recognition. I mean the least they can do is drop a like at the artists place and show their support. But they don't, that's what I hate.
Supporting the artist does come first (push for that like button on request btw).
That being said, are you saying people are making a full living on being Guro artist and supplying to and small, (although super strong) niche? Wouldn't that be kind of impractical and not a full means to make living money, but rather side projects and things they relatively were going to do but didn't necessarily have the funds/time for?
Also, wouldn't censored artwork or a teaser generally have no full affect for those who glance over it and move to the next post. Are you implying that they have a system of those who already support them (compared to those who use this site for free) and they just post on here for the occasional person who might pass up all these artworks to pay for content? I'm not saying to ignore them/their request altogether, but I don't really see a super big deal in a few pieces of old artwork they have stored in their larger archive atleast one pirate may have to pay for being leaked. I have literally gone to some of the Patreon sites and websites and seen the artist literally posting nonstop, damn near up to the date content and some artist whom I've never seen or heard of with their artwork popping up here. I literally didn't know they existed.
I think in general, not even all moderators or people care much for some content leaks. The underlying thing most people are saying is don't be boastful with the posting of the content, respect the artist (Also thank you Onix for being a contributor :) ), valid reasoning for having the artwork taken down (breach of anonymity, etc) should be taken into consideration,
* Special Sidenote: Is there a means of rebranding the pictures so they can't be doxed that can be added to the site? Was this also by chance someone recognized the style?
And most importantly, make sure to treat everyone respectfully despite maybe not getting your fantasy fulfilled by them and finding tasteful ways to relay your disappointment, especially when they post the paywall lol.
I remember I wanted an artist to redo one of their animations/make a new one and after a while just stopped asking. I just went to another artist and they fullfilled it with additional ideas I never even thought of. If you want something fullfilled btw, just ask another person. They might give you something better and encourage them to keep creating better content. Also, follow by Onix' example if you can and become that artist while also requesting and taking request so we all can grow.
I am glad you understood my point and of course I do not expect you to agree or do what I want. Maybe within some time you may change your mind or maybe not.
As long as you do not use your power to censor other opinions it is all fine and enuogh.
But dam, I ended with pretty long response again. Not sure if you will even be willing to read it or respond.
>Again. I understand that piracy is a large part of our media here and that it is unavoidable, Im just still not quite seeing how piracy is "good"
It is not some huge issue but is pretty simple: we are competing for the same market if your competitors leave more profit for those who left
this is pretty basic economic theory. Yes we get somewhat enuogh of attention but with less competition we would get even more.
Also we may get more donations as well. Because people who buy content to support paid artists woud probably support us instead
if you compare patreon page of free artist and page of paid artist you will she pretty serious difference in their income.
I consider that a severe injustice and unless those supporters of paid work explain it why they give money to those artists more than they give to us it can be considered same issue as piracy when paid artists are indirectly stealing money from us.
Also take in mind that as free artists we are each other fans of some sorts we provide value to each other, but we have no relationships with paid artists we have no access to their work it is just absurd to give your work for free and then pay to get access to someone else works.
I do not see artists leaving guro I rather see their numbers slowly growing on pixiv and here as well.
the reason why they leave is usually the fact that guro is pretty controversial issue or because they get bored, not because they do not get paid.
reverse is even more likely because I see artists deleting their guro content when they get popular and start selling mainstream stuff.
art/porn market is totally over saturated. It is impossible to consume everything what is being produced
when talking with you and other people claiming that there is some kind of lack of guro or other content I wonder if we live on the same planet
according to my observations we have so much, that people are starting to ignore it and do not even bother to write comments.
we have problems in the very niche areas that lack content simply because very few people are interested if any at all. those nice areas are not even big enuogh to support one commercial artist, if you have 10 people who are interested in your fetish
While I woud be happy do discuss the end of capitalism and communism, but here I think it is enuogh to say that market will not go away even under communism it will just be diffrent motivation. You cannot apply capitalist society logic to communism.
>Just let sleeping dogs lie.
totally agree here, and it woud be nice if you do not interfere with that
we do not need any policies to hurt commercial artists neither we need to help them either. Let them naturally interact with everyone under same conditions and nature will do its job.
everyone who brings content to this site should be equally welcome even if this is pirate. If some disagreement happens mods can get in and deal with that as they see fit.
Piracy is natural process which is happening all by itself not because free artists are trying to sabotage something on purpose. No need to fight it or support it either.
>>9534>People would rather see previews and freemiums than nothing at all lol, the artists that paywall actually do contribute even if you aren't paying.>So there's value in that naturally, don't tell me you rather not see or know of the artist than skip out on some pictures they drew from their paid content.>So people would be a masochist for reading mangas or novels that are known to be discontinued? Not how it works
The problem is that those artists deliberately construct everything is a way to irritate you as much as possible as if you were allowed to watch the movie until the most important moment and then told if you want to find out what happens next pay for the ticket. Artists should not actively manipulate people into buying his stuff. That has to be optional.
I have no problem with artists who give part of their content for free and part for money but just in that case if artist posts 2 pictures from 50 of all he made well that is pretty shitty contribution he deserves some mild ridicule for that not respect.
>No I meant being grateful when they view the pirated content.>Obviously you seem sophisticated so not you, but many others here feel so entitled and bitch when people don't want to show them said paid content.>And upon receiving them, they praise the pirate as some kind of hero, and the artist gets not a single word of recognition. I mean the least they can do is drop a like at the artists place and show their support. But they don't, that's what I hate.
Where you see the entitlement here?
You are not entitled for sun or rain but you still bitch if you don't get that when you need it
People are grateful to the one who brings that content to them if it is artist they will be grateful to the artist if it is pirate they will be grateful to pirate and see him as hero.
If you are not against free speech I you cant complain if people bitch when artist is teasing them or for any other reason they want to bitch. If someone will bring them what this artist is refusing to show they will naturally praise him as hero. What else you can expect?
the artist in that case deserves just "In your face. We still managed to get it regardless of all your efforts to deny access to this content."
I even observed situations when artist himself gets teased when pirates continue reuploading his work while chatting with the artist and everyone around are mocking him for being unable to stop it.
it is also bad experience for those who got it for free after all because now you kinda enjoy the fact that you beaten the artist instead of being his fan.
and if you got pirated version you can try to come to the artist and say "hey I downloaded your work you did nice job" but it is unclear how he will react as some do not like when pirates are praising them. some are actually nice enuogh and after their work gets ripped they just take the lead and enjoy new group of fans.
This is why I think it woud be pretty good idea for those artists to give private free access to their work to the people who are bitching about it most. It will totally change that attitude.
there is absolutely no need to to produce enemies for yourself and especially those who are very motivated.
like this guy is admitting >>9528
some people will never become your customers but they can spend in orders of magnitude more effort to get you work for free even if paying would cost less.
Whether pirated content is allowed or not seems like it'll depend on who the mods care more about pleasing. Artists with a pay wall in an oversaturated market who use manipulative tactics to get a leg up, or consumers and artists who make their work available publically. Attention and resources are limited and artists who don't block their work are probably underappreciated. Either way, anybody who pays artists with previews and a paywall is a sucker. They should be boycotted.
Then it will depend on the extent of the previews, I agree with you if it's a cocktease, but if they show what we come here to see, then it wouldn't make sense to pirate their work since both sides would lose. Not to say it's disrespectful too.
Maybe we have different artists in mind but the few well known ones I follow supply more than enough guro for free and even releases their old paid content after a year.
You're right, they would praise them. I guess what I mean is they should be thankful for the artist too, after all, without the artist, there wouldn't be the art nor the pirates.
It's really their attitude that infuriates me, though not all pirates are the same, I've seen some acknowledge what they do is against the artists will and asks for viewers to support the artists work if they liked it.
But for those that think "fuck you artist, I got your paid content therefore it's my win" should be "thanks for sharing pirate, and thank you for drawing artist, I'll go drop a like on your pixiv or whatever"
To an extreme extent, yes, I believe people should be grateful for rain and sun too. But anyways, artists are humans, and feeling entitled to their art that they explicitly said not to share is just wrong in my eyes.
I'll be okay if pirates recognise what they do is morally wrong, as you can't deny that they are stealing from the artists.
Sure, if the artists didn't say anything about sharing, then go ahead.
I agree with this policy. As disappointing as I am when I see something is on Patreon and I'm out of Patreon allowance, pirating someone "up close" is crossing a few lines. Bragging about it crosses some more.
Giving all artists equal rights to protect the privacy of their work wouldnt be showing prferential treatment to paywalling artists. Wed be treating everyone equal, you would just have less porn.
You having less porn isnt bad for free artists, its good for them. Ostensibly they would get more attention of a huge chunk of their competition was cut out.
And its anti consumer? Consumers that do what? You dont pay for this website, so we dont owe you anything.
You dont get to simply *decide* that the value of other peoples hard work is exactly $0 and then pretend that you're at war and being attacked and that the mods here are either on this side or that one.
Value is arbitrary, if you think paywalled stuff isnt worth anytbing then dont buy it. Just because you think its worthless doesnt mean you should have the right to decide that the artists cant be able to sell it.
I dont know how you justify yourself here: "Give me everything youve worked on for free or get out. I will steal it from you."
Now guro chans like "maybe thats not how it should work…"
And youre like
"How dare gurochan fuck over the artist and consumer."
>>9541>Maybe we have different artists in mind but the few well known ones I follow supply more than enough guro for free and even releases their old paid content after a year.
Yes, that can be the reason of our misunderstanding too, because I am mostly talking about 3d artists who use such dirty practices. maybe 2d artists seem to behave more or less properly. If artist is releasing his works after a year then I woud even completely agree with you that he should not be pirated at all.
But speaking about 3d where you can pump out 3 pictures in a hour (while half of that time you wait for them being rendered) and finish entire story in one day, posting few pictures as preview is plain mockery. You can release entire series with same amount of effort as it takes to draw 1 good quality picture.
If we have the situation like you describe, when the artist who is acting nicely and contributing reasonable amount of free content to be valuable, then I agree with you.
>But for those that think "fuck you artist, I got your paid content therefore it's my win" should be "thanks for sharing pirate, and thank you for drawing artist, I'll go drop a like on your pixiv or whatever"
I believe nobody wants to think "fuck you artist" It is pretty unpleasant experience which happens only if you get into the fight of some sort or if you do not really care about that artist at all, which is pretty common too.
With pirates, you can't chose what you get. Someone uploads something random, you take it, view it, giving 0.5 seconds of your attention to each picture and throw into your collection of trophies or trash can. What kind of gratitude you can expect here?
So please be reasonable too and care about the difference between those who are real fans and people collecting everything they can grab.
The bigger problem I see with 2d artists is that they treat their fans like shit. If someone makes a request, artist almost gets into rage pointing out that he will not move a finger for those who are not paying customers.
Is it that hard to be nice and respond with something "paying customers have bigger priority for me and I will consider your request when I will have free time."
or just something "thanks, I will keep it in mind" or "sorry, that is too much work" ?
Just treat requests like normal comments and enjoy attention, you are not obligated to fulfill them all.
When you observe that kind of artist behavior you lose any desire to be nice with them too even if it was another person to whom he responded.
You can do whatever you want with gurochan and artists can do whatever they want with their art. Those actions have larger ramifications though. I personally believe the only valid way of making money through this kind of art is commisions and donations. Artists who don't block what they make deserve more attention because paywalls aren't anti-consumer, they're anti-community. A lose of art, that sub-section blocked by a paywall, isn't as important to me as how that art is distributed. I don't persoanlly agree with empowering people who do anti-community things. I don't think you're a bad person or anything, but that's how I feel.
I also want to add that the big difference between online, one-man-band art and something like a video game, which needs a lot of money to be made, is that the only thing restricting an individual artist is their own time. Most likely, a singular online artist, especially one that does something this niche, wont ever be able to fully live off of their art. This is a supplementary income, to make an incredibly niche product. The pool of resources this small group can provide is very small. If they start getting much more attention, they'll probably do more mainstream stuff, because they're interested in money first and foremost like onix said. They're not invested.
>[..]because they're interested in money first and foremost[..]
I give you the benefit of the doubt
and generously assume that you are
NOT an unemployed piece of shit and
actually work a job.
What are you first and foremost
interested in regarding a job?
I'm a stem uni-student. I'm more interested in the job than the money. Also, supplementary income, which guro art is bound to be, is not the same as a day-job. You can't live off of it, so whatever you contribute should be more about the community than making an extra buck.
Well, I guess not really should, but if their motivation isn't to help out by contributing art, at least eventually making it publically available, it's hard for me to see how they're really part of the group.
Ah… Now I see where you're coming from.
A STEM student.
So you strongly believe in FOSS as in
free speech and free beer ;)
… uh… AND you don't have any money.
It's funny how you assume that
guro-artists are not able to make a
living off their artworks.
Boi, let me tell ya… You don't have
the slightest idea.
But hey, you are pursuing a career in
STEM. That's GREAT!
You are more interested in the job than
the pay? EVEN GREATER! YEEEHA!
Wait until you're sitting in an interview,
get low-balled as fuck and then tell me
how cool it is to be a highly qualified
employee with a shitty low-ass monthly wage.
Trust me, I know what I am talking about.
You'll be surprised lol, there are guro artists that make a living.
Not going to name anyone but there are.
I mean obviously not all artists, but that shouldn't discriminate the ones that survive off of their art.
Guro is niche, but it isn't obscure enough to not be able to live off it. Especially if your art is top of the line.
Just because there are few people in the world with 7 billion population it is not a proof that this is generally possible ;)
So I think we should judge them on a case by case basis instead grouping.
Hope we can find a middle ground: for scummy artists, pirating is "okay".
For the ones that deserve respect, or the ones that live off of this, then it's not "okay".
Like you said, you seem to be exposed to the negative side of the spectrum of artists while the others probably have artists on the other side.
In the end, we should treat how the artists treat their audiences. Fair?
Ok, first of all, a reminder, this is what we're talking about.https://www.gurochan.cx/g/res/55737.htmlhttps://www.gurochan.cx/g/res/53771.htmlhttps://www.gurochan.cx/g/res/58229.htmlhttps://www.gurochan.cx/g/res/55736.htmlhttps://www.gurochan.cx/g/res/66329.html>>9556
Second of all: No, we're not making rules about the way the community generally feels about certain artists or waiting for gossip or hearsay to come in so we can decide to shaft specific artists. That's not fair, it's destructive.
We, gurochan, are not fucking responsible for how an artist treats their fans, and artists aren't going to be treated worse by us just because they treat their fans badly. Their fucking fans handle that, we're not gonna take the personal drama of every individual artist into our own hands. We either have rules about this sort of thing or we don't but we're not gonna pick and choose, mainly because:https://www.gurochan.cx/art/res/7967.html
Third off, ayasawn– the person all those threads above are trying to steal art from, was posting here consistently with free art while also hosting a patreon with paid content. She was on gurochan before she even had a patreon being a huge part of the community. It seems the order of events is: She was here posting, had a couple haituses and stuff, imperfect as an artist, she went silent for a while *because she got into a fucking car accident* and by the time she returned the entirety of gurochan had been thrust into a conversation about how she's a shit person for paywalling her work, people were even asking for her patreon work to be posted in her own art thread while she was probably in the hospital.
>>9556>In the end, we should treat how the artists treat their audiences. Fair?
Yes I agree. And I suppose most other people should also agree because it is pretty logical.
If artist cares not only about making money but also about nonpaying fans those non paying fans are supposed to care about that artist as well.
It's illogical. Thats a rule enforced by a matter of opinion. "Scummy" is an adjective, it can't be applied in a reasonable rule– it's just weather or not you like someone.
Deciding who the rules apply to based on weather or not you like their off site business practices isn't *fair* by any stretch of the imagination. "Treating them how they treat others" isn't fair either, that's inconsistent. And we'd only be able to learn through hearsay. Besides, remember: I could say it's my opinion that Onix is scummy for defending piracy as a practice and then ban him. I could say "I'm treating you how you treat my favorite artists"
I'm not gonna do that, and I'm not flaunting my power in order to intimidate you guys. I'm just making a point. As a philosophy, picking and choosing who the rules apply to based on behavior and usefulness to the community is to subjective to yield the expected results.
I totally did not expect that it is all about those threads. I did not even notice them at all.
I thought that it was all about some insignificant request where someone asked for some content from obscure japanese artist and that post got deleted while this scary threat appeared here, so I thought that if even those kind of requests are getting deleted it is pretty bad.
If this is about ayasawn I agree with you. But it looks like some kind of misunderstanding just like that other time.
>Second of all: No, we're not making rules about the way the community generally feels about certain artists.
You got is out of context as we were not discussing gurochan rules here but more like moral principles. (at lest this is what is think)
That's fair. I let myself get riled up– I've let you beat me out in terms of level headedness.
I've said pretty much everything I need to say here, I'll leave the thread to others for some time. I think I've laid down all my thoughts that can be laid without repeating or stretching.
What I wonder is say a artist had a patreon or paywall but something happens to them or they pass what then
Though this question comes up every so often.
Well to answer that, the paywalled content ends up lost for all time
And to bring up something that should be obvious, the internet is for the FREE AND OPEN EXCHANGE OF IDEAS
That implies that the people trying to pirate artwork have anything to exchange with artists beyond shameless requests for free shit.
Well, I've been around the guro community back when we were all still just a series of loosely connected yahoo groups, then we had 5chan's guro board and now we're here. I'll say that a lot of consumers have gotten pretty damn entitled. I've seen consumers complain about artists having a Patreon, when the only thing inside said Patreon were WIP and all finished works were free to the public. They talk out of their damn ass. Sorry that's not fucking okay. Secondly, everyone pirates stuff and if you want to shamelessly pirate stuff, by all means do it. Stop trying to justify it and act like you are some freedom fighter on the moral high ground. You really aren't. Acting that way is the opposite of being a shameless pirate, those are the actions of someone who does something with shame, who needs constant reassurance he's not doing something wrong. If an artist wants his stuff taken down, then please respect the artist's wishes. Everyone always debate whether piracy hurts sales and the truth is, it depends. Every business works under different conditions and circumstances and you do not know whether the business have alternative revenue streams. For example, piracy isn't a big problem for a musician, if a majority of his income comes from merchandise or paid gigs. The starting musician who loses money paying for data storage, selling his music online might not have the same luxury or circumstances.
In summary, I'm quite disappointed in how entitled everyone has become. When we had to pirate stuff back in grumpy grandpa Cursed days, we would e-mail the files to each other. We don't act entitled to it and we most certainly didn't brag about it. If you're gonna pirate, do so, but stop being a douche. If an artist asks for you to stop, don't attack the artist like an idiot. Seriously grow back the tact you lost.
To bring the topic to Exhentai there is an examole of the other extreme end…
Where they take down videos when ANYONE claims they own it or even part of it.
It is sad one artist felt chased off and somehow violated that art that would of vanished forever otherwise is on that site but if I were Ex I would ask for proof he was who he claimed to be at least and at most ignore entirely to avoid coming close to what YouTube does
This approach does not make much sense because you are basing everything on the lie.
You claim that pirating is wrong and yet you do it anyway.
you steal a bit here and there and at the same time argue that "stealing" is wrong.
I do not support that way. Either you obey your moral principle or you reject them entirely as something nonfunctional
Doing it half-assed way is the worst thing.
Since life without piracy is practically impossible. We should abolish that copyright idiocy entirely.>>9585
according to capitalist artist agenda, all that work has to disappear.
because if all work will end in the public domain at the same moment we will have some much content that nobody in their sane minds will pay to any artists, and even artist themselves will run out of content to create because everything is already made.
so capitalists want all artwork to be just temporary so that everyone has to buy it and the moment when you can get everything you want for free never happens.
There is no lie, piracy can potentially hurt some artists, not all artists mind you. They all have different circumstances. But as I stand, if you are going to pirate, there is no need to justify your actions. Just do it. However, there is nothing wrong with having the decency of being civil towards the artist that you might be hurting. We don't live in a black and white world. So can it with the morality talk. If anything piracy has always been a grey area. Just because we can't live without piracy doesn't change the fact it does harm. We can't live without fuel and agriculture either, but that doesn't stop it from destroying the land. Labor does not come free in this world. Until we have a sustainable abundance where every artist can be fed and housed, it is unreasonable to ask them to stop protecting their business. Even successful artists making 3000 per month on Patreon is making lower middle class income, even less after taxes and Patreon's cut. They are already the exceptional cases.
I think I already addressed that sometime before, that it is not about money
so how artists make money is irrelevant to piracy.
The goal is not to make money for artists but to get more content into the public domain as the primary goal and the rest is the way how we do it.
Being civil with artists means that we are discussing that exact issue, as making a deal with artist allowing him to make money in exchange for his work becoming public domain.
Artists who agree to negotiate those terms and be reasonable deserve respect. Artists who think that they are entitled to copyright and their art is their property so they do whatever they want without any conditions are just as entitled as people who demand it for free.
I think it is time for everyone to learn the rule that people only care about you if you care about them. You get right as for of bargain where every right for you costs certain obligation.
So if you want people not pirate your work please pay to them for that.
Well put, so what are your terms on piracy that can earn the artist a livable wage?
First keep in mind that it is not about you making a living wage, it is about what you can offer to pirates to stop pirating your work. Because we are not just pirating it, as you may believe, we reject your right to have control over that work entirely. To be a pirate you need to acknowledge your ownership and I do not acknowledge it so I am not a pirate.
But this is easy to solve by using original copyright laws, that give you monopoly and right to control its distribution for a limited amount for time as compensation for your work and then you lose all rights to your work giving it to public.
I believe it could even work today to some extent if we reduce that time to 1 year or maybe even less because of how fast everything is going in the modern world.
You draw a picture and nobody is pirating it if you agree to upload it to public at max 1 year later. You will have plenty of time to sell it to those who are inpatient. If you failed to sell it in 1 year probably you wont sell it anymore and those who refused to buy it in 1 year probably will never change their mind.
so win-win situation
In fact it is nothing new. This is why copyright and patents laws were invented in the first place. Not to allow you to make money but to make you make more public content.
Of course some pirates will still break those rules, but they will not be so well received as now when they are treated as heroes. People will rather just wait 1 year to get that content than go in the fight with artist. You will be compensated for not pirating and that is good incentive. people who download pirated content will tell to the pirates that "please don't do that because we rather want to get this content later than make artist stop producing it entirely"
It will be way better relationship where everyone knows that you will get it some time later if you do not pay.
I see some artists are voluntarily adopting that principle and it seems to work well to some extent.
Probably this can even be negotiated on the individual basis. Just tell your fans not to distribute your stuff and in exchange you will post it all yourself some time later for free.
I thought it had already been discussed that the mods didn't really care unless someone was bragging or the flow of work being "pirated" was too big.
Personal side note: I never understood why they broad cast here (on a free work website) for others to purchase their work and then others having a problem with (some of the authors themselves don't even care about) the additional work they do popping up here. Why would they broadcast to thoe who directly come here for literal free art.
Another note, the mods said they wouldn't directly go out of their way to delete everything and in so many words to keep it tasteful along with keeping in mind that if the artist asked for it to be removed for personal reasons they had the descretion to do so. If you have the works others ask for, post them if you want. You however have to keep in mind they might be deleted at anytime. If you see someone asking for works, don't batter them/don't respond if you don't want. On either side it takes your eyes off the most important things, like these beautiful works of art being created. Appreciate them and each other even if varing in opinion.
Why not just require artists send a DMCA request? That way you don't have to fuck over the community and you can still follow the law.