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 No.8814[Last 50 Posts]


On this web site, I see mostly women getting mutilated. And the manga recommendations I see for guro is mostly female mutilation.

But on other sites it feels that there is a huge community of (mostly) women into male mutilation.

Let's discuss: what's you gender and do you like seeing victims of your sex, or opposite sex? What's the gender breakdown of the fans you have interacted with and their interests?

All the people I have met outside the internet who enjoy guro are women who prefer male victims. But of course, it's not quite as taboo for a woman to say she enjoys that, versus the inverse…

 No.8816

I would like to find out what is that secret site where women have any interest in male mutilation. It must be on another planet LOL
According to my experience women have no interest in men at all besides when men give them attention. Women usually seem to be very flexible on what they like as long as it provides them attention, so they do not really care if you kiss them rape them or execute them as long as they are in the center of attention.

Exceptions happen from time to time but that's super rare. (and there is a suspicion that those women are "transgender" LOL)

I don't know how you are supposed to make people reveal their perversions in the real life so I never met anyone who is interested in guro or even plain bdsm. But speaking about people whom I know online, pretty much all are men, some seem to pretend to be women. People who are into male mutilation are also mostly men too.

I myself like both male and female guro. But I prefer feminine/young looking guys.

 No.8826

I'm a woman (as in, an XX woman), and I prefer an even mix, even though I'm same-sex attracted in the real world.

All the creators and fans of my and others' work that I associate with are biologically female and usually prefer either sex with a leaning towards male or sexually ambiguous characters.

We tend to keep to our own and usually don't cross paths with the male part of the guro "community". I believe our attraction to guro is very different at its core, most likely due to women being socialized differently from men, so I see no issue in this voluntary segregation.
I'm sure you can look at guro art made by men and guro art made by women and see what I mean

 No.9215

>>8826
>I believe our attraction to guro is very different at its core, most likely due to women being socialized differently from men.

That is fascinating! Does anyone have any more details on this difference? It's surprising that there is more than one kind of attraction to guro, so what kind of different attractions are we talking about?

>I'm sure you can look at guro art made by men and guro art made by women and see what I mean.


It's not always easy to know who makes the each piece of art. It would be very interesting to see a side-by-side comparison.

 No.9216

I made some different observations.

It seems like there are more women
into guro as in erotic-grotesque
in its entirety, including snuff,
rape etc. as many want to believe.

'Grotesque' should be interpreted
more widely, not with the narrow focus
on the 'gore'.

Man and woman have a different take
on sexuality in general, but they
both focus on the same thing.
The woman.

When men think about sex, their
primary focus lays on the woman.
When woman think about sex, their
primary focus also lays on the woman.

WITH the EXCEPTION, that most woman
seem to see themselves in the role
of the woman, for example if they watch
porn.
For them, the woman actor is a
placeholder for themselves.

I strongly believe, that a similar
perspective holds true for guro.
Women who like guro, tend to see them-
selves in the situation displayed
by the often female victim.

Clearly, there are exceptions.

But most women, that are into guro,
I know of are far less drawn to it
because of the gore, but because of
the situation of objectification it
provides.

Letting go of all the burdens, social
life puts on their shoulders, being
nothing more than a passive, Re-acting
and in most cases aestetically pleasing
'thing', while BEING FORCED(!) to break
the taboos seems to have it's kicks.

To be aestetically pleasing seems to
be of great importance for them, because,
despite the fact our society tries to
convince us otherwise nowadays,
It is the most important thing a woman
evaluates herself takes into account.

in short:
Being reduced to beauty,
forced into submission/peril,
'guided' through the taboo by force.

 No.9221

>>9216
>Man and woman have a different take on sexuality in general, but they both focus on the same thing. The woman.

That's an interesting theory. It's too bad that no one person can ever see life from both perspectives to verify that it is true, but if it were true, it should not come as any great surprise. After all, men and women are both human, both born the same way, both with human DNA and human brains. It is not strange if we both see sex the same way, even if we ultimately end up playing different roles.

 No.9223

>>9215
I think this is not because of socialization because it is more like genetic character differences. Male and female brains have significant physical differences
Women are just genetically passive/submissive and it is almost impossible to change them.

Some societies made significant attempts to achieve more equality between men and women in terms of socialization but in result, they ended with even stronger differences.

Also while you can't tell if the artwork was made by man or women with 100% accuracy, but this is often quite evident because men focus on visual things while women focus on emotions and relationships. women are usually quite primitive down to earth people who focus on realistic things. Another difference is how they imagine ideal relationships.


>>9216
Taboos exist in real life fantasy has no taboos. So this kind of logic does not work well. Women are always passive both in real life and in the fantasy, you can force them to take initiative by pointing a gun to their head, but they will be super unhappy.

 No.9224

>> 9223

Ahhh… action-onix just saves the day…

Sometimes, I believe the only reason
you hack into your keyboard is to
disagree with someone. No matter what
this someone might state.

Observations and Conversations with
real (in terms of RL) Women have led
to this very brief statement of mine.

And of course, taboos exist in fantasy.
There is where they flourish.
Rightfully so.

If women were ALWAYS passive,
how can you explain highly sadistic
women? I think sadism plays a more
active role, don't you agree?
The majority of women MIGHT be passive.

The whole point of being forced/guided
through tough intimate situations is
that it takes away the RESPONSIBILITY
from that woman of what is happening
with her.

If you were a woman,
and you have a delicate 'kink',
actively engage in obscene situations
you will most likely run into a
phenomenon called 'slut-shaming'.
BAAAAAD GUUUUUURL…
But if said situation is forced upon
you, as a woman you are 'fine' If you
know what I mean.
——————————————-
LADIES, HELP US!

I would be delighted, if some
XX-type woman could chime in and maybe
present us with some first-hand
impressions.
Maybe a completely different view.
I am honestly curious to learn new
things.

Maybe Clear could 'clear' things up?

 No.9225

>>9223
>Women are usually quite primitive down to earth people who focus on realistic things.

It is surprising that there would be any guro fans at all among such people! What sort of guro would a realistic person look for?

Of course, "primitive" isn't the right word. Primitive means old, and women have naturally been around for exactly the same length of time as men, so both men and women are exactly as primitive.

 No.9234

>>It is surprising that there would be any guro fans at all among such people! What sort of guro would a realistic person look for?

A realistic person will look for realistic guro which potentially could happen in reality standard murder, torture, executions, sacrifice. Not things like some hyper scat when you drown entire town in your poo, or play basketball with our own head or get an orgasm from being fucked in the eye socket where actions and consequences do not match and also give abnormal emotional responses.


>>9225
Of course, the majority of both men and women are equally primitive.

But women are exceptionally primitive by design because they are practically 100% biological creatures who very rarely deviate from their biological roles.

Men, on the other hand, do not get pregnant so they are kinda free to focus on all kind of nonsense like sending rockets to the moon, calculating digits of Pi or solving pointless math problems, drawing women with enormous breasts or jerking off to dead catgirls.

Nothing of that makes even slightest sense in biological perspective it is all pure waste of time and energy which could be spent on making babies and feeding them. If women started behaving like men all humanity would go extinct pretty quick.

Sure you can somewhat socialize women and make them pretend to be like men, but they will feel bad in the wrong role and their motivation will be different.

In fact, this is the same in most species. Men have no real purpose, they spend life having fun, usually fighting and wasting energy, while women take care of children.

>>9224
Sadistic women seem to be super rare. If you simply check online dating site you will see that sadistic men outnumber sadistic women about 10 times and reality is even worse because even those sadistic women are often not really sadistic but just doing it for money or attention or they are just plain bullies. I had a chance to talk with few really sadistic women and you know their sadism is still kinda different than male sadism.

All that slut-shaming is a myth, because of several reasons: You are merely repeating feminist propaganda.

1 Dominant woman is not a slut even if she had sex with every guy in her town. A dominant woman is usually called a bitch but never a slut. If a woman is taking initiative she cannot be slut-shamed. Word slut refers to a passive woman who allows men to fuck her. If she is fucking men herself she is not a slut.
2 dominant women actually enjoy huge success. even men love them and they have no problems finding submissive men who are happy to be their slaves or even sacrifice themselves to that woman. the only problem is that most of those dominant women are not really dominant but just do it because of some other reasons.
3 women have way more liberty than men because unlike men they are allowed to be aggressive and even violent especially against men, and if she dislikes being slut-shamed she is totally free to put the offender in the place using violence and aggression.
So if anyone tells you, "you are BAAAAAD GUUUUUURL" you prove that by crushing their face with your fist,( or better your foot)
Being bad is, in fact, the main sign of dominance as you do not give a shit about the opinion of other people outside of utility purposes.
If someone says that I am nice, I know that I am doing something wrong ;)


Talking with people in real life is a totally meaningless thing because nobody will tell you the truth people only can be themselves when they are totally anonymous. And even then you need to do that in the situation when they are not motivated to lie. I had lots of chanced to talk with women online about those things and I was not asking than anything directly but just observed their behavior. In fact, I did it both as a man and as a woman with both men and women of various kinds. Also, I did considerable research on dating advice, random anecdotical evidence on what happens in relationships and how women behave, and lots of other stuff. So I know what I am talking.

If you want to learn more, my recommendation would be to become a woman yourself on the internet and you will see how you will be treated. Make a female character and do some roleplay with men and women and you will see the results. Also, you could try to read dating advice for women where they discuss how to seduce a man and how to make that guy do wahst they want. (We are mostly interested in what they want here.)

The main issue here is actually that if you are a dominant woman you have to take a submissive/switchy man, But women naturally dislike that kind of men. If it happens that you are a bad girl, "good men" will avoid you and you will have to look for mommy's boys or become lesbian. No real man will date you or marry you since all those men are looking for submissive women. Submissive men obviously do not make that much money while those who switch do not care about anything at all, see life as a game and don't take any responsibility.

Responsibility issue is real but not critical. Sure everyone loves when someone is forcing them to do things they like. This is not limited to women, men like that too. However, fantasy is by definition something that rejects any kind of responsibility. Actions have no consequences in fantasy. so if women really were so horribly repressed in real life they should be exact opposite ion the fantasy where they can freely show all they cant in reality. But as we know, female fantasy is practically the same as reality except that it assumes unreasonable expectations.

 No.9239

>>9224
I love that this is just randomly in verse

 No.9240

>> 9234

Action-onix,
the sheer amount of energy you
put into just disagreeing with others
is remarkable.
Honestly, I just have time to skip-read
your BS.

Clearly, you are the one that has
gathered all the knowledge available
and we all should whoresip your wisdom.

I don't know about you, but talking
to people in RL can be honest too.
Maybe you just don't experience honesty.

Obviously you know EVERYTHING about
women…
Next time I want some dating-advice
I might turn to you for help ;)

 No.9254

Onix. I agree that brains are different and women and men have some different tendencies, but then everything else you type just looks more and more like diarrhea had a baby with sexism then adopted the child to a back alley crackhead who raised the baby in the basement of an abandoned house..

and decades later that baby grew up to comment that women don't have shit to do with sending rockets to space or getting silly..

 No.9255

>>9254
Do you complain about my writing style or about what I say. or it is pretty hard to understand here you actually disagree with me.

Unlike other people who write that kind of stuff I do not hate women. I dislike this situation but I understand that this is designed by evolution and if it was as I want it to be, humanity woud go extinct pretty soon.

 No.9258

>>9216
OP here! I agree with aesthetic appeal being big in female-targeted guro. But actually about 3/4 of women I know seem to like primarily male victim. But they don't necessarily want to be the perpetrator, and actually few female artists draw female perpetrators, M/m or unknown/male is more common. And they might consider themselves 'sadists' but do not want to hurt men IRL.

And, Onix, you say you don't "hate" women but the way you talk about them isn't respectful. Saying stuff like, women are 100% biological creatures, it's like you're writing off women as people. And, if women are too realistic to get off to a character orgasming while getting fucked in the eye socket… let me refer to you to my collection of BL images (by female artists) of men cumming while getting fucked in the eye socket! I think 'internet' type erotica for women tends to be even more unrealistic/abstract than porn for men…

 No.9259

>>9258
Well if you are right, I just wonder why I never met any woman on the internet (even if this is not a proof) like that but there are lots of men like that?
So yes I am writing them off as a hopeless thing for myself. Of course, they are people and usually good people but women with at least some rudimentary creativity and nonbiological interests are super rare.

In some way, it is similar to Peter Pan story where the typical woman is Wendy and the typical guy is Peter Pan. When you are a guy all your life is like that but only women you can have are imaginary fairies.

Considering your collection, I would really like to see it. Not only as proof of your "theory" but because I love unrealistic porn :) maybe this is just some kind of luck but I never even seen such pictures or read any of such stories here on gurochan or other places.

Also, I would love to find out some names of female artists that you mention here and see their work.

Unfortunately, the only unrealism of female erotica I know is that women have unrealistic expectations about super-rich men getting interested in them (and otherwise getting an unreasonable amount of attention) LOL. So again, if you know any of this unrealistic female written erotica please show it to me too.

 No.9260

>>8814
I'm a male who enjoys female victims. I noticed the same thing, that most people I meet in real life who enjoy guro are women, some who enjoy men some who enjoy women.

I've found a lot of women who simply identify as or with the characters in the works they love, identifying with the victim usually regardless of weather that victim is male or female. A lot of the women I know who fantasize about being victims like a lot of the same things I do– cute characters suffering.

I've met women who enjoy heavily misohynistic worlds or characters– but so far, they don't actually identify as a literal dumb or worthless bimbo– but rather they're still fully realized women who are just victims of society. Where as the men partaking in those fantasies where the female is worthless are literally fantasizing about a world in which females are demonstrably of no value outside of sex.

 No.9262

>> 9258

fascinating!
Women aroused by male victims and also male
perpetrators are quite
the opposite from what I have experienced.

Is it about the act of two males fighting
each other?

Can you name some of the female artists?
As a guy, I'm usually pretty cautious
about 'women' on the internet.
You know, catfishing and stuff…

Thanks for your Reply.
Very much appreciated.

 No.9263

>>9260
>.Where as the men partaking in those fantasies where the female is worthless are literally fantasizing about a world in which females are demonstrably of no value outside of sex.

Actually this is the ultimate value you can have, as normally you have value for what you do for other people but the idea that you have value just by yourself without the need to make any effort at all is actually putting yourself on the very top of that society.

This is somewhat similar to necrophilia situation when woman retains value even when turning into biological trash. Men only can dream about that.

 No.9266

>> 9263

> […] as normally you have value for what you do for other people […]


Truer words have never been spoken,
action-onix.

;)

 No.9267

>>9266
It is nice that you agree sometimes LOL

 No.9269

File: 1557444808920.jpg (269.13 KB, 777x550, sbotds.jpg)

>>9259
>>9262
Female guro BL artist examples:
服部ミツカ/SADISTIC MARY / Heavy Syrup (see image left)
速水くろ/GiGiGi妙
橘こう
闇路ユリ
I've seen others who draw female victims, usually cute/girlish characters instead of 'sexy' ones, but I don't remember them because not into that.

As for western communities, filter AO3 by the 'snuff' or 'guro' tag and you'll see a ton of erotic stories, mostly by women. The extreme sex writing & art by women on the net seems to be mostly on fan/fanfiction communities.

And B.B >>9262 women who like M/m guro tend to like M/m porn in general – so it's like men who prefer lesbian porn, I guess. By the way, are you manually typing in your linkbacks to posts? They don't work because you put a space in them… if you click on the # of the post you're trying to reply to, it automatically generates the link.

 No.9270

>>9269
Thanks. Those artists look almost same, but probably because you like that kind of style.

I will need to do a bit more research on this topic.

 No.9272

test

 No.9273

>>9272
test2…

 No.9274

>>9269

Got it…
I am using tor browser with JS disabled.
therefore the automatic insertion does not work.
But I understand my mistake.understood
Thank you very much.
Quite embarassing.

Personally,
I have to admit that I am not really into
the Japanese/Eastern drawing style
myself, maybe because I have seen it so
many times.

Objectively,
The artwork
Is of impressive quality.
A lot of hours have been spend there.

I now understand what you mean by stating
female guro was more abstract.
I am still trying to figure out, what the
artist is trying to convey.
This makes me look at the piece over and over.
Although I find the drawing style as mentioned
not that innovative
It's fucking intriguing.
I LIKE THAT. REALLY.

The AO3 thingy is a pretty damn cool resource.
visited it, and slowly orienting myself on that
website.

Thanks for that ;)

But… what does BL mean?
Are you yourself an eastern-earthling?

 No.9276

File: 1557453861949.jpg (561.7 KB, 1064x1511, 18-76.jpg)

>>9274
BL = boys' love, male-male content aimed to women (usually manga, anime, games). Tends to have more feminine characters and more emotions/plot/buildup than gay porn for men.

Sorry, because this is an *chan site, I used anime slang. As you see from the imageboards, lots of anime fans here.

I am not from Asia. Although my family is. I speak Japanese pretty OK so I interact with the Japanese guro community more, because there's more content for my tastes there.

btw, if you can't figure out what was going on in the last image: the main character was previously disemboweled and lost a leg, now gets fucked in the eye, and then in the brain and out the eye socket. Afterwards having his brain fucked destroys his higher judgment and he turns into a total slut. Can't call that realistic :-)

 No.9277

>>9274
Oh yeah, and BB, if you want to read guro on AO3, I suggest you make an account. There's no indication of it on the site at first, but some stories (usually especially nasty ones) only appear when you are logged in.

 No.9279

>>9276
Actually, this is somewhat realistic because that is a possible outcome of the brain damage. ;)
The main idea here is that author of that comics is probably not trying to redefine reality itself.

But I think I will be able to tell more when I will read some of the stories on the site you mentioned.

 No.9281

>>9276

> Sorry, because this is an *chan site, I used anime slang.


Oh, please! You do not need to excuse yourself
for my own incompetence.
It's fine.

I might sign up tomorrow.
Think, I could gain a lot of insight.
Despite I do communicate with like-minded ppl,
also women in RL, the 'numbers' are pretty low
and most of them are share very similar ideas.

This congruence feels good and provides
great conversations, but it surely limits/narrows
my perspective on the 'whole sphere'.
I'm not doing myself a favor,
staying locked up in my comfort-zone.

It's refreshing to see something new,
even if I may not prefer/like it.

I am at your gratitude.

 No.9308

Oh boy. I don't have time to break down some of the comments from men here line by line and explain things, this is gonna be long anyhow. Gird your scrollbars.

I'm a sort of gender-complicated lesbian. I'm afab (assigned female at birth, as in, born with a vagina). I know lots of women, as well as lots of nonbinary people and trans men (FTM) who are into guro, as well as related interests like monsterfucking and piss and scat. There are bigger numbers who are into tamer kinks, but that's all true of men too. /d/ over at 4chan moves a lot faster than the boards here. You have lots of basic people into vanilla stuff (plenty of guys just like Playboy and normal porn), plenty of people into BDSM and kink, and the more you get into extreme and niche the smaller the group, but there are still plenty to be found. The same on both sides of the aisle. I have found that trans men seem to stick closer to female spaces, though afab people of all stripes do lurk and cross over, probably more than cis men do. (We're all aware of your guro, whereas some of you don't even seem to know ours exists?) Many of them will say that they feel the cis spaces are boring or hostile to them. I don't see many trans women (MTF) in the female-dominated spaces, so I can't ask them what they don't like about them. If any want to chime in, I'd be curious to hear their perspectives. But I think what has been asked about was the experiences of women in female-dominated extreme fantasy kink spaces are, so here we go.

Why do women seem rare in these spaces–i.e., what's making the women either leave or not participate here? (Obviously, some women are here and participate here, I just mean in equal numbers.) Well, it's a bunch of things. Many of the comments in this very thread being really sexist is a good example. "Women just like attention," "women are simpler creatures," etc. How about admit that you don't know anything about women, my guy? Because you're showing it.

There are other things that tend to be considered "over the line" in female-dominated spaces. Female-dominated extreme kink spaces believe that anything is morally fine in fantasy, but have a very firm line between fantasy and real life, and a strong emphasis on consent in real life. Like the comments here that women like to be raped–that would get you banned with a quickness in any female-dominated space. Because it makes us very, very angry. Because it shows such a profound disrespect for and misunderstanding of our experiences. That kind of thing is allowed in a context where it's understood to be part of the kink to say that, where it's understood that you're playing a role, but not as a statement about how things really are. Not in this particular thread, but I've seen a lot of comments on gurochan where people say things like, "I want to do this in real life." "I would do it if it wasn't illegal." "I'm afraid I might do it anyway." Or even, "I want someone to do this to me in real life." When the thing in question is something like murder or cannibalism, or you have people saying they want to rape and mutilate kids for real or whatever. That's all a huge no-no in female-dominated spaces. We're here to fap, not do crimes. I find it very distasteful when I see it. Even if it was true, you should know better than to say it. And it disrupts the community. How are we supposed to fap in peace when there's some nutjob saying they're like an inch from going out murdering people?

And by drawing the line firmly at fantasy vs. reality, we don't feel like we're bad people. We don't think we're real deranged sickos or whatever, because we can enjoy cartoon gore and respect other humans in the real world. We can roleplay some of our more achievable kinks consensually between adults. A few newbies come from backgrounds that gave them shame and guilt, but the community overall is a pretty shame-free space. We don't like shame, and we keep it out by keeping real life out of it. We don't care about ethics in fictional character torture. (There are female-dominated spaces that do, in fact, care about that, but they're very kink-unfriendly.)

Another big cultural taboo is that we feel strongly about credit and attribution. Sites like Pinterest and WeHeartIt that are almost all reposting are popular, but also seen as trash. Ideally, we prefer to give creators a platform to present their own work, and failing that, prefer attribution and permission. This is seen as maintaining respect within the community. The imageboard type of just posting everything without credit to the creators is often hated by female creators, and fans of female-generated content orbit around female creators. AO3's culture shows that well, with posting another person's work being explicitly forbidden even with credit. The taboo is strong enough that even when a creator deletes their work (so linking to the source is no longer possible) it's usually only redistributed in private. You have to ask if anyone has it and they email it to you. Attribution is always kept even then.

About the genders women are attracted to, and the genders they like to see portrayed in the art: statistically, most women like men (even if they also like women) but women who like women seem to be better-represented in kink spaces than in the general population. It may be that coming to terms with being gay or bi means exploring your sexuality more deeply and honestly, I don't know. I think lots of them show up straight(ish) and end up just liking each other a lot, haha. Female-dominated kink spaces are full of women hooking up with each other, basically. Both for real-life sex and just sexy text-based communication at each other in private. Not every woman is into that scene, plenty of straight women have their own circles where they just drool over men and don't homo at each other, but the segregation between gay and straight isn't as firm as it is in male-dominated spaces. For what it's worth, men who can play by the rules and not come off as creeps tend to have more women interested in them than they know what to do with. They're like unicorns there. But most men are pushed out immediately for being judgmental, sexist, or otherwise behaving inappropriately. This is intentional, because such men are seen as ruining the space by making it hostile to women, who then have to go make another space for themselves. This is why these communities tend to be more hidden. It's also why there's so much M/m, as I'll get to in a moment.

In this thread I've seen the assumption that women prefer male victims because they're attracted to men, and that women prefer female victims because they want to imagine themselves as them. While both such motives certainly exist–in different women and yes, even in the SAME woman–what makes you think that women would not imagine themselves as the male victim, or that they wouldn't imagine themselves as the male perpetrator in M/f? While there are some women who exclusively prefer to insert themselves into scenarios with a female stand-in character (look up "self-insert fanfic," "character/reader," and "Mary Sue" for more on that) overall, women are much more flexible in how they project onto fiction. And, how do I explain this…even though they may project onto a character (as in, they imagine they are feeling that character's sensations) they don't imagine that character is THEM. They don't imagine their real-life identity is in that scenario, experiencing those sensations. Their real self isn't part of the fantasy. It's a fantasy about being someone else entirely. So, women have no problem imagining themselves as a gay male sadist fucking some boy's intestines. Even someone who's a lesbian in real life can do that, because that kind of fantasy isn't about you or what you actually would like to do with your flesh-body, it's about losing yourself in a character who has entirely different preferences. While many women do have a preferred POV (victim or perpetrator) many also switch freely between them, depending on mood or even within the same fantasy, to experience it from both sides. While some women do have a gender preference in their fiction, the reasons for their preference aren't necessarily related to their preference in real-life partners. Hetero combinations have additional gender dynamics as part of the "flavor." A woman's preference for F/m or M/f might have less to do with which she "identifies" with, and more to do with whether she kinks on the power dynamic of extreme patriarchy or on the reversal of that. She might also like F/m out of attraction to burly amazons as partners, despite the fact that she's nothing like their male victims IRL. M/m is a very common preference, and tends to attract women who aren't picky about genders either way because there's already such a community for it, so it snowballs a bit just by being popular. A strong reason for its popularity is quite simply that straight men tend to leave it alone, and the content itself quickly and easily repels men who can't behave themselves. The faster we can get rid of the straight men, the sooner we can get to fapping, basically. M/m isn't popular because we love men, but because it makes most men leave us alone. Lesbians and bi women also tend to enjoy that the content is gay, because we find that relatable even if the characters are male. Another reason it's popular is actually because it's less identifiable to women. Women may dislike feeling pressured or expected to identify with the female character in het, and if the identification is too close to home, it may ruin it. A fantasy where she's a man has more distance between it and reality, and she's therefore freer to imagine things reality would spoil. Other women feel completely the opposite, and don't enjoy M/m because they can't relate to it. There's no female hivemind, but M/m remains popular, and has enough lesbians in the community that there's something other than attraction to men going on.

Other types of content definitely exist too. I have seen M/f, F/m, and F/f out there by and for women, as well as gender-ambiguous characters and monsters whose gender is incomprehensible or irrelevant. In some circles, M/f is the most popular gender combination, however, in more mainstream places like say, romance novels, while extreme kinks tend to still be liked, it's a lot more stigmatized, censored, and forbidden. Women get concern-trolled and attacked from all sides about this: that they're telling men it's okay to hurt us, that they're training women to be abused, that they have internalized self-hate, etc. Other combinations have their own specific issues. F/f has some people who basically think it's bad press for lesbians, who compare it to homophobic content that says lesbians are predatory and crazy. But probably the biggest limiting factor on these spaces is the feeling that men would take them over and push us out.

Related to this, there's some research that even in kids, boys tend to identify with male characters in media, while girls can identify with male or female characters with equal ease, which is why so much children's media has male protagonists, because there's more money in cross-appeal. That itself reinforces the trend, because there are fewer female characters (and variety in those characters, for all the diversity and complexity in girls out there) for girls to latch onto, so they pretty much have to learn to make do with male characters whether they want to or not. How much of this is socialization, who knows, probably a lot. Boys who start to identify with female characters seem to be punished for it and learn not to do that again. Which I think is quite unfortunate.

Just as women don't necessarily want to project onto characters of their gender or anatomy, they also don't necessarily want to project onto their top/bottom preferences. No one wants to get their eyes gouged out and get skullfucked in real life, or almost no one, but it could be a hot fantasy. Imagining oneself as the perpetrator also doesn't mean you'd find it at all appealing to do that to someone for real. And these things don't mean you like to top or bottom in bed, either, since topping or bottoming in bed is such a different experience in every way from a fantasy about fucking eye sockets. A lot of people believe women prefer to project onto the victim. I won't deny that's popular, though not ubiquitous. But I think a lot of content on gurochan actually favors projecting onto the victim rather than the perpetrator, for this reason: the perpetrator is often off-frame. Even if there's a POV dick, the victim has the focus. Women are more likely to project onto whatever has focus, rather than imagine themselves as the partner of the focused-on character. A picture of a limbless woman and nothing else leaves nothing else to identify with in the picture. Sure, she could imagine having the limbless woman as a victim and pet, but to do that she has to invent a whole new character (possibly resembling herself) to add to it. To be encouraged to project onto the perpetrator, most of us would want to see the perpetrator, especially to see their face, to get some idea of the mood and motives of the perpetrator. Are they unhinged, leering, possessive, or coldly clinical? I don't want to have to make up the character I'm "experiencing" myself, I could do that in my head without any help. I want the work to give me a character to be, not just a character to fuck. You will see this pattern in say, M/m works on AO3. Fic that focuses on the bottom is for people who want to imagine themselves as the bottom. Fic that focuses on the top is for people who want to imagine themselves as the top. It's not the other way around. We're not looking for dates.

Is female-generated content more "abstract," more "vague," more "focused on emotions"? Eh. Yes and no. If you mean that women don't like graphic depictions, nah. Women like graphic depictions just fine. But places where women can put these things out there tend to face a lot of censorship. Notice all the censored cocks in yaoi. The self-published erotica industry faces intense content scrutiny, and published erotica is even worse. Women may censor and be vague because it's the only way we're allowed to produce content at all. Women will also usually prefer censored female-generated content to uncensored male-generated content, in spite of the censorship rather than because of it.

Female-generated content does tend to have more of a narrative. This is why many women will call male-generated content "boring." The sight of a character with their guts out is a good start, but it isn't enough. We want to know how that happened, like what's the story here? Who did it, why, how did this character end up here? And we'd rather that story was interesting and evocative! People talk about women's preference for knowing how the characters involved feel in a disparaging way, like oh women, only caring about ~feelings~. To us, the fact that men wouldn't care at all looks stunted. What is the point of drawing a character being flayed alive, if their face conveys no sense of pain or fear? Isn't the point of that to either imagine being in pain, or causing pain? What is there for the masochist or sadist if there's only mechanical action, but no pain? To be honest, the same problem exists even in male-generated vanilla porn. We see lots of dicks going into holes, and no one seems to enjoy it, hate it, or have any kind of feeling at all about it. That's weird and unnatural. Why would we want to imagine having really boring sex? We could get a real man for that, lol.

Even blankness could be hot if it was intentional. Why is the character so blank? Mental break? Disassociation? Mind wipe? It's not enough that there's a red-hot poker in her pussy. I want to know why she doesn't care that there's a red-hot poker in her pussy. That's what would make it interesting. Most of the time it doesn't feel intentional. It doesn't feel like a statement, but like it just wasn't considered important. There's female-generated content like that too, but the more poorly-defined the character, the lower quality the content is considered to be. It's considered less skilled, maybe good enough when you're horny, but nothing you revisit.

There's a stereotype that women prefer text to visuals, while men prefer visuals to text. I don't think this is exactly true, but the truth is similar. Some women do prefer text, but many women prefer images. For extreme kinks, we don't want to get anywhere near "real" content, but Hollywood special effects are fine, and drawings are always fine. On all levels of kink, we get less content catered to us–we don't get budgets, we're niche at best. It's cheaper to produce a comic than to produce a movie. It's cheaper to produce text than to produce a comic. So we don't have the more mainstream stuff. Even hosting images, and paying lawyers to defend the legality of your images, costs money. AO3 was originally intended to host art as well as fiction, but they couldn't afford it. So female kink exists on a shoestring budget. We have to make do a lot. And men certainly like text as well. Sometimes there isn't actually that much of a difference between fiction by men and by women. Both have examples of high and low quality. But one trend I find to be more common with male-generated content in both fic and art is that there's either no anticipation or "foreplay" and it just throws you straight into the action without warming you up any, or it's ALL anticipation/"foreplay" and stops right when the fun was about to start!

God like so examples of this "all foreplay, no action" trend: male-generated content has a disturbing lack of actually fucking the victim. I see a lot of amputees, potgirls, disembodied heads, corpses, whatever. But at what point was someone actually going to fuck them? All these poor girls being made into living fleshlights and never getting used. While female-generated content does also have a fair bit of "the kink replaces sex rather than including sex," especially with the more "actiony" kinks like execution or cannibalism, there's a whole lot of making a character into a helpless fucktoy that never actually gets fucked in male-generated content. How many times have I seen or read about men being transformed into bimbos or absorbed into a pussy or turned into blow-up dolls, and then it just ends there and no one fucks them! Now THAT is what I call vague and not graphic. Give me something, a POV cock, I don't care, not enough fucking in this porn. And please, can the victim react (or meaningfully fail to react) to being raped?

Abrupt endings seem very common in male-generated kink. Maybe it's the whole, you're only having one orgasm while we're in for the long haul, I don't know. Abrupt endings are usually considered unfinished in female-generated content. We abandon works in the middle, sure, but it's not deliberate. Like, a whole short story might be about a character being transformed into something, but then nothing about what life is like for that character in their new form. I've even seen so many male-generated things with an ominous fade-to-black implying they're going to get fucked forever, but not even one sex scene. Obviously doesn't apply to kink that results in death of the victim, that is an ending, but only because there's no "after" to tell.

Another part of it having a longer narrative is that not all dynamics would necessarily be Perpetrator/victim. Other possible combinations include victim/victim (under the control of the perpetrator, or after the fact in some way) and the vastly underrated scenario where the victim is somehow rescued or ends up in friendly hands, but is still irreversibly damaged, grotesquely physically altered, and possibly sex-addicted. The friendly third person would likely be horrified, freaked out, shocked, grieving, or something like that, so in a way they're kind of a secondary victim of the perpetrator, but they're also unwillingly dragged into a perpetrator-like role in being forced to have power over the victim, since the victim can no longer hold power. Varying degrees of this dynamic are very popular, often called hurt/comfort. Darker variants might have a perpetrator who flips into a false "comforting" role and acts friendly once the damage is done and the victim has no choice but to play along in the hopes of better treatment, or may even be broken enough to make themselves believe it. And a narrative can include several of these, e.g.: Perpetrator/victim, Rescuer/victim, Perpetrator/rescuer (second victim), victim/victim (former rescuer).

We also tend to categorize kinks more by tropes, dynamics, or events than by physical objects, though there are some physical-object-based kinks. For example, mainstream male porn focuses mainly on the performers' physical characteristics: Asian, teen, MILF, BBW, though there are some trope or narrative-based ones, like cuckolding. Women care more if this is a loving first time or incestuous infidelity than if the incestuous unfaithful people are Asian teens. The percentage of how much we care about narrative vs. object seems to be reversed. So the male obsession with objects feels very basic and simple. Women often complain that the frame stories in mainstream porn aren't hot, even when the sex manages to be, which is very hit or miss. Even a quick and dirty sex scene could still have a narrative, like naive prison guard/conflicted prisoner, bam, that's more of a story than just genitals mashing on each other with the brief implication that one of them is Asian.

Women also just, honestly, tend to be thrown by certain anatomy and tropes in male-generated content. A lot of the female bodies throw us off by looking like the man has never seen a real woman or touched a real boob. We usually don't like ridiculous balloon tits, unless it's actually a breast expansion kink instead of just treated as normal. So many women I know are like, "what is with men and the giant tits." Lesbians don't find the giant tits any more appealing. That doesn't even hit the part of my brain that recognizes it as a woman's body, all I see is men being weird again. Other bad anatomy includes: not knowing how to draw a pussy at all, really lazy half-assed pussies (especially noticeable when the cocks in the same art are lovingly detailed), not understanding that the vagina is in the back of the vulva and not dead center (yes, really!) and pubic bones just basically not existing or obeying the laws of physics. Also the titty bouncing in animation always just looks wrong, the boobs almost never lie realistically on the chest, etc. It just makes the art look lower quality.

Hilariously though, women are absolutely just as guilty of this, but with male bodies. Yaoi/BL is rife with bad male anatomy. It just doesn't bother us as much, though we do still joke about it and consider good anatomy to be higher quality.

While I think I met one woman who did like ahegao, most women I know hate ahegao. We just think it looks stupid. No one really makes that face when sexually overstimulated or whatever. Like, what is that even supposed to be? Why are the only two facial expressions "blank doll" and "ahegao"? It's bad art, it doesn't evoke what it's trying to evoke at all. Ways to give women a ruined orgasm: put ahegao in it just when they're about to come.

And while tastes vary wildly on mindbreak and brainwashing, a very common complaint I hear is that men do that in a boring way. It's stupid that all it usually takes is getting pounded with a big dick. We just kind of go, "they sure think a lot of themselves." You never see a man mindbreak into a slutty simpleton because a woman with a meaty pussy rode him for five minutes. (Though, actually…that would be kind of hot….) Usually, we like the mindbreak to be harder to accomplish, happen more gradually, and often for the character to try to fight it more. Many women say it's boring when the character isn't even a little bit still in there fighting it. Total brainwashing is liked by some, but the mood is still different, closer to a horror movie where the victim thinks they're in a romcom. Big dick goes in for five minutes, ahegao and slut4eva is so near and yet so far. Many women's reaction to male-generated content is, "I keep coming back because it's almost my kink, but why are they so bad at this?"

Where do such women congregate? Usually in more niche parts of spaces that already have a lot of women in them, but are general-interest spaces. Women tend to prefer general platforms that allow the most innocent content but also the most depraved, which is why AO3 (which was created by female-dominated fandom) is like that. However, we often don't make the rules of the platforms, because $$$$. Pinterest and Instagram would be hotbeds of graphic female-generated guro, if the TOS allowed it. Livejournal had a fair bit of that in its heyday, though with so much deleted or friendslocked/members-locked and it being a bit of a ghost town, you won't find much of it there today. Other former venues include Y!Gallery, which shut down, and tumblr, which was a very popular space for female kink until adult content was banned last December. To be honest, a lot of us are still reeling from the loss of tumblr. It's starting to feel impossible to enjoy ourselves out in the open, so a lot of it's going underground. Invite-only Discord servers, closed Facebook groups, personal conversations in real life and in instant messaging. Some of it may have went to Twitter, some to Pixiv. I don't speak Japanese, so I can't say much on the Japanese culture on Pixiv. Non-Japanese-speaking users on Pixiv are already something of a minority fringe. We've had spaces as long as there was an internet. There was female-dominated kink going on on Geocities, in mailing lists, on Usenet. There are quite a few women into furry stuff, though I get the feeling furry stuff is still seen as male-dominated. Even within furry spaces, I think some gender segregation is going on, but not really being furry I don't know where the furry women hang out, just that I've met some kinky women who were also furries.

We don't expect to be welcomed or catered to in male-dominated spaces, though, any more than we expect to welcome or cater to poorly-behaved men in our spaces. (Men who behave themselves are always welcome, but most men have no interest in that, and get shown the door.) I think even men get the concept of "lurk moar," i.e., learn the social rules before you participate, or don't participate if the social rules aren't for you. While I know I was a bit harsh on male-gaze kink, part of it's like, turnabout is fair play, guys say terrible things about women's tastes all the time (plenty in this thread, even, do you even realize how offensive some of you sound? why do women not talk to you?? It's a mystery!) so that set the tone for me being a bit offensive back. But really, we assume that men make their stuff that way because that's what they enjoy, just like we make our stuff in the way we enjoy more. Even if we read Nifty, we don't tell the gay men there to make it more like AO3, as we expect the gay men to not tell us to make AO3 more like Nifty–and we swiftly tear apart those who try, because men are entitled like that. Some women have no interest in places like gurochan at all, even if they enjoy guro. A great many I've talked to in other spaces have said they lurk, but would never comment. My girlfriend told me not to write this comment, saying it was a waste of time, "Men will never get it." We tend to think men don't want things explained to them, as they only get angry or offended when we explain ourselves, and seem to prefer behaving badly with the excuse of being ignorant. It's really like, stopwatch till someone says you're just a dumb domestic gossipping stereotype with no real sexual preferences other than being treated as an object, and not only like rape, but don't even know the difference between consent and rape because you're such a shallow little cunt. So charming. It seems impossible that a man could form opinions that bad through just ignorance, so he must already know that's wrong and be doing it just to be hateful. Why even try to debate that, right? The problem with men is not just that the unwanted sexual attention we often get from them, though that's certainly a problem. It's the way even if they're gay and not interested in us, they didn't consider that we don't exist for their benefit and acted to please ourselves, rather than to be more convenient to a man, and therefore, women creating M/m content are not doing it to please gay men, and don't care at all if gay men find it pleasing or not. A man being gay also doesn't make it less offensive if he thinks you have no sexual preferences and find being raped acceptable, just because he wasn't planning on doing the raping himself. But let a woman complain about men being intrusive and entitled and acting maliciously towards us, and she'll be accused of being a crazy man-hating feminist. But we say, fine–they're not allowed to tell us how to be, and we won't go tell them how to be, let them be like that and think there are no women on the internet, or they're all "catfishers."

As for my own interaction: I've lurked here for many years. I often link threads or content I like to other women, who also enjoy it. I very rarely comment, and try not to be disruptive to the community, more just taking it as what it is and scrolling quietly past content that doesn't appeal to me. I did post a little of my own content several years ago, but only very rarely post content by other people, mostly because I'm lazy, and because there seems very little in it for me–it's more exciting to see if anyone liked my own work than just something I reposted. I might post more art, especially with tumblr shitting the bed lately. I don't plan to post opinions with that, and probably won't be telegraphing my gender any more than one could just guess from my style and content preferences. Overall I like a bit of everything in genders of victims and perpetrators. Style and quality matter more, though points for concept and creativity. I usually prefer to imagine the sensations of the victim, though I'm a sadist and top IRL. I find the victim's POV more interesting, because it gets you closer to the suffering than imagining oneself as the perpetrator would, but the response to it is still rooted in sadism. In fiction and fantasy, I am in a way always the perpetrator, as I choose to imagine and linger on the fantasy, and the imaginary character–and how much I imagine they suffer–is under my complete control. I mostly like /g/ and /f/ stuff. I find more things to my tastes on /f/, so I tend to go there first, but it's less that I dislike gore, and more that gore art is just often drawn in a way that's less appealing to me. When it's drawn to my tastes I love it. Actually, several women have told me they don't like gore, but when I show them gore I like they say they do like that, they just didn't like other gore they'd seen before.

A reason I hesitate to post my own art and fiction is that I think people may want or expect content more catered to male tastes. Not even the genders of the characters or whatever, I love drawing female victims, that's fine, just those little stylistic cultural cues. Just like a lot of the content here misses the mark for me, my content would miss the mark for a lot of people here. Lately I just don't know where else to put it, the art, anyway.

What I like about gurochan is that it's easy to find. It's right out in the open, no membership required, no secret handshakes, no having to know the right people, no having to talk to anyone. It has a wide variety of content, so there's usually something for everyone. It's accepting of a broad variety of kinks, people usually aren't assholes about something not being to their liking, especially on the threads themselves. That's appreciated. Discussion on the imageboards is kept to a minimum, which is good. Just content where you want content. I like that the content restrictions are sensible: no RL gore, no handwringing about imaginary character welfare. I like discovering new kinks here. Basically, gurochan is reliable and delivers what it promises: imageboards full of guro aggregated from around the net. It hasn't really changed much in years, despite changing hands a few times. I admire the dedication that goes into keeping this place around, and I'd be sad if it was gone for good. Because most female-dominated spaces start general-interest and develop niche communities, those niche communities can at times have a tenuous relationship with the larger community. Gurochan basically just being for guro is more welcoming in that way. There's no question as to whether guro belongs here or not. No rich investors worry about it being unpalatable to the mainstream and push it off. But I basically get all the benefits by lurking, and very little added benefit by participating, which is why I lurk.

 No.9309

>>9308

HELLYEAH, MOTHERFUCKER!!!

That's what I call a breakdown!

A-EFFING-MAZING!!!
LOVIN' IT!!!

copied,
pasted,
preserved…
… to read AGAIN at a later point in time.

BAM! STRAIGHT IN YOUR FACE!
——————————————-
Honestly, that's an impressive wall
of text you've build there.

I am sure this took a good amount of time
off your Sunday.
I understand why your Girlfriend was against
posting/assembling this contribution of
yours, regarding the low
return-on-investment ratio.

Maybe today is my lucky-day where I get
something for free that I didn't really
deserve.
Obviously free, but undoubtably PRICELESS.
Valuable.

Any attempt to express thankfulness and
gratitude just seems to be a puny try of
mine to get even close to what you
might deserve.

—–
—-


-

So recieve those kisses of mine,
my fair lady,
for you and your girlfriend,
my fair lady,
to put them into places,
my fair lady,
which are nasty and shady,
my fair lady,
to enjoy, they are tasty,
my fair lady,
and accept the sincerest Gratitude
of mine,
for you and *your* fair lady,
my lady.

-


—-
—–




;)




——————————————
seriously,
you post was really cool and I enjoyed
it very much.



THANKS!



- Enjoy the rest of your Sunday

 No.9310

>>9308
Wow, You probably spent all day to write that rant but it looks greatly as some kind of usual feminist propaganda again because you blame some mystical forces that prevent you from expressing yourself but at the same time you refuse to participate here or anywhere where you are very welcome.

Also It is a bit strange that all those female dominated spaces seems to be so secret and invisible maybe they are in the real world?


>.A reason I hesitate to post my own art and fiction is that I think people may want or expect content more catered to male tastes. Not even the genders of the characters or whatever, I love drawing female victims, that's fine, just those little stylistic cultural cues. Just like a lot of the content here misses the mark for me, my content would miss the mark for a lot of people here. Lately I just don't know where else to put it, the art, anyway.

Maybe you should stop assuming nonsense and try it? or you are afraid that your ideology will be broked when instead of hating your work everyone will like it?


But actually in some aspects you describe women pretty accurately, I totally disagree with all that idiotic oppression thing but other stuff is spot on.

>Women also just, honestly, tend to be thrown by certain anatomy and tropes in male-generated content. A lot of the female bodies throw us off by looking like the man has never seen a real woman or touched a real boob. We usually don't like ridiculous balloon tits, unless it's actually a breast expansion kink instead of just treated as normal. So many women I know are like, "what is with men and the giant tits." Lesbians don't find the giant tits any more appealing. That doesn't even hit the part of my brain that recognizes it as a woman's body, all I see is men being weird again. Other bad anatomy includes: not knowing how to draw a pussy at all, really lazy half-assed pussies (especially noticeable when the cocks in the same art are lovingly detailed), not understanding that the vagina is in the back of the vulva and not dead center (yes, really!) and pubic bones just basically not existing or obeying the laws of physics. Also the titty bouncing in animation always just looks wrong, the boobs almost never lie realistically on the chest, etc. It just makes the art look lower quality.



Thanks for confirming what I mentioned about female primitivism here, because this is exactly what I call being down to earth. And even your reasoning refers to "the man has never seen a real woman or touched a real boob" as you assume that men are supposed to follow reality.
But what actually happens here is that we redefine that reality, we make it look as we want it to be not as it is.
You probably cannot even imagine what amount science goes into finding a way to break those laws of physic and make a loli girl fit an object in her vagina which is bigger than she is herself. Or how much tweaking goes into breasts to make then look just right.


>>While I think I met one woman who did like ahegao, most women I know hate ahegao. We just think it looks stupid. No one really makes that face when sexually overstimulated or whatever. Like, what is that even supposed to be? Why are the only two facial expressions "blank doll" and "ahegao"? It's bad art, it doesn't evoke what it's trying to evoke at all. Ways to give women a ruined orgasm: put ahegao in it just when they're about to come.


If you dislike ahegao it implies that you are very self-centered which is again what I mentioned before in another way because when you are focusing on someone else you need that person to be emotionally responsive. or else what the purpose of all what you did if is ended with nothing?

You assume that men have sex with women to have orgasms? yes maybe those brainless baboons who are sometimes called "alpha males" are like that
But creative man usually does not seek orgasm we seek to keep all that arousal for as long as possible. Orgasm is typically the end of the road, you have it and you lose all interest in anything.

This female self-centeredness is actually kinda useful for men too sometimes especially for primitive men, but many women are just to stupid to understand that men fuck them not to have orgasms, but to get that ahegao expression on her face. If one wanted to have an orgasm, that's what we have our hands for. Sex with a woman is precisely to get her response as a primary goal. Men see women as women kind of game which can to be manipulated into certain result by pushing the right buttons. (this result depends on personal tastes, either it is to make her happy or to make her cry)
And at least I personally expect a woman to do same for me but unfortunately most women are just to dumb to understand that or just don't care. I never met any woman so far who would be interested in doing the same thing to me as I do to her. The best that happens is if I find someone who kinda unintentionally behaves as I want her to behave and I get some mediocre experience.

This is actually a big issue not only in sex but in all relationships, because women cannot understand how to manipulate experience of their opponent/friend they are either your slaves or enemies, there is no that middle ground when woman would challenge/provoke you and then maintain win/lose ratio to keep things interesting.

>>Related to this, there's some research that even in kids, boys tend to identify with male characters in media, while girls can identify with male or female characters with equal ease, which is why so much children's media has male protagonists, because there's more money in cross-appeal. That itself reinforces the trend, because there are fewer female characters (and variety in those characters, for all the diversity and complexity in girls out there) for girls to latch onto, so they pretty much have to learn to make do with male characters whether they want to or not. How much of this is socialization, who knows, probably a lot. Boys who start to identify with female characters seem to be punished for it and learn not to do that again. Which I think is quite unfortunate.


This is total nonsense because in reality half of the women on the internet are men in disguise we do identify as female characters as well, but not as real female characters. We never become self-centered. so even as a female character, we are actually "guys with tits" we use our femininity to manipulate other people. That femininity is just one of the superpowers we want to have. If the guy imagines himself as a woman it is not some kind of mother or innocent girl it is the superhot bitch that can make other guys cum just by touching them.

Ranma 1/2 is a good example of what it means for a guy to be a girl. It is just a body, not the mind.

In a similar way, female fiction is also portraying women in male bodies. Just like in the male fiction where we create a hyper-feminine body with the male mind women create a hypermasculine body with the female mind.

In fact, transgender people also mentally remain the same as they were born. most of the time MTF women are still men and FTM men are still women. this is kinda the reason why they are also pretty attractive to straight men and women.

 No.9312

>>9308
>Female-generated content does tend to have more of a narrative. This is why many women will call male-generated content "boring." The sight of a character with their guts out is a good start, but it isn't enough. We want to know how that happened, like what's the story here? Who did it, why, how did this character end up here?

It's impossible to really know the difference between men and women since no one person can ever see the world from both perspectives, but any one person can know what he or she likes, and this is the good stuff. This is why text is usually better than pictures and why I focus entirely on writing. It's the best way to construct an effective narrative, both fastest and with the least effort.

The most frustrating thing with guro manga is when the dialog is in Japanese and therefore incomprehensible. The pictures themselves are only a tease that something amazing is going on, while the real fun would be in knowing what the people are saying and thereby understanding why this is happening and what the people are thinking. Sometimes the desire to find these answers will even drive me to waste large amounts of time painstakingly trying to draw Japanese characters into Google translate, only to end up with poorly translated hints of what the characters are saying.

>Abrupt endings are usually considered unfinished in female-generated content. We abandon works in the middle, sure, but it's not deliberate.


It's doubtful that anyone does that deliberately, but very often a person's inspiration will dry up. Someone comes into a project with an idea, but realizing that idea is the easy part. The challenge is wrapping it in a convincing narrative, and that is very, very hard. Any guro fan would love to know what happens next in their favorite guro situations, but eventually our imaginations fail us and we just can't think of anything good, so we must fade to black. I personally have multiple guro stories that I really enjoyed writing and never posted because I couldn't think of a good ending.

Perhaps the real difference is that men are more often interested in publishing their unfinished works, while female-dominated communities are more likely to reject such work as being too low-quality. It is probably still worth publishing works that end abruptly, even if it only serves to inspire other people to imagine their own endings.

>So many women I know are like, "what is with men and the giant tits."


It is tempting to imagine that if there are any real hardwired fundamental difference between men and women, one of them would be male attraction to breasts. We might imagine there is some part of the brain that develops differently in men to naturally draw them to women and continue the species, and it works by locking onto the simplest and most obvious way to distinguish women from men, and this crude mechanism is so simplistic that it causes the attraction to increase as the breasts get bigger.

On the other hand, Mythbusters once did an experiment where they tested the effect of breast size on the tips given by customers at a restaurant, and the tips actually increased as the breast size of the server increased. Perhaps even more surprising, this effect was seen in both male and female customers. Surely no customer would consciously give more money for the same service, so perhaps Mythbusters were revealing some unconscious preferences that exist in both men and women even if we're not aware that we have them.

Let's not be quick to trust people when they say they're not interested in giant tits. People lie, especially when talking about potentially embarrassing topics, and it seems that sometimes people are even attracted to things without being aware of the attraction.

>People talk about women's preference for knowing how the characters involved feel in a disparaging way, like oh women, only caring about ~feelings~. To us, the fact that men wouldn't care at all looks stunted. What is the point of drawing a character being flayed alive, if their face conveys no sense of pain or fear? Isn't the point of that to either imagine being in pain, or causing pain?


Is that really a male/female thing? I'd always imagine that it was merely particular to each person. Some people seem to prefer their guro without emotional content, and it's easy to understand how pain and fear could be detrimental to sexiness. On the other hand, some people seem to take a darker approach, wanting to imagine the full picture, suffering included. I've always been among the latter and never considered that it might actually be a clue to the sex of the person. It's hard to believe that everyone who is into the darker stuff might be female, but now it's going to be hard to shake that thought.

>Pinterest and Instagram would be hotbeds of graphic female-generated guro, if the TOS allowed it.


It is terrifying how society likes to dictate to people what they should and should not be interested in. This is exactly the sort of thinking that leads to totalitarian dictatorships. If we like to have tightly restrictive TOS rules, then why not extend the same principle to every aspect of life and give the government total control of the people to ensure that no one can do anything that we find upsetting? Sadly it seems to be human nature that we will abuse and oppress each other, creating more misery for ourselves than any natural disaster ever can.

All anyone can do is try to lead by example and be welcoming of alternative tastes, especially when they don't match our own. We can't make humanity change its nature, but we can try to embody the change we want in ourselves and hope that others will do the same.

>A reason I hesitate to post my own art and fiction is that I think people may want or expect content more catered to male tastes. Not even the genders of the characters or whatever, I love drawing female victims, that's fine, just those little stylistic cultural cues. Just like a lot of the content here misses the mark for me, my content would miss the mark for a lot of people here.


Most of the content here misses the mark for everybody. We all skip over plenty of stuff that doesn't interest us. Your content would not be special in that way, and it would undoubtedly be very welcome by those who want it. Gurochan doesn't exist to cater to some particular taste, but rather it exists because society refuses to accept unusual tastes and brutally restrictive TOS rules force people out of mainstream services, leaving us nowhere to go but a place that's willing to accept us, and gurochan fills that niche by accepting all the people that other people reject.

 No.9313

I'm a woman that enjoys females being mutilated for the most part
If they're Male they have to be a very convincing trap or it just doesn't do it for me
Its like that with most of my fetishes
I enjoy imagining myself as both the victim and the perpetrator, though as the perpetrator more often

 No.9314

>>9313

Cool that you join.
Do yourself a favor and do not
read not all of the posts here;
especially not those of onix, our beloved
low-orbit troll.

Question:
While imagining as a perpetrator,
do you prefer to act as a woman or a man?

 No.9315

One interesting observation on this thread:

Did anyone else noticed that all women who talk here are lesbians? imagining themselves as men.

 No.9316

>>9312>>9308
Thank you for this giant effortpost. It's insightful, and its happy to hear there's a F/f lesbian guro subculture I never interacted with. More people in this hobby the better! (Also RIP Nifty)

Please don't be reluctant to post content here. This isn't a site "for (straight) men" it just feels like it became that over time as others left for Tumblr/AO3 and didnt come back to this site. But if you are lurking seems quite likely that there are other lurkers that share your taste…


>>9310
So a zombie getting bimbofied from a dick lobotomy is "realistic" and "primitive" but big tits are too intellectual for women to understand, or something…

 No.9317

>>9316
>>So a zombie getting bimbofied from a dick lobotomy is "realistic" and "primitive" but big tits are too intellectual for women to understand, or something…


Of course no, if women can think something like that, it is great, it is not primitive it is just very rare.
But looks like this is not happening very often and other women dislike and even complain about that kind of stuff.

Anyway, >>9308 describes the situation pretty accurately, she just said the same as I say except another perspective. We are complaining about same things from different directions. She just did not bother to assign labels to the opposite gender. (probably because of the lack of creativity to make up her own worlds or use existing ones LOL)


She even admitted that she hates men by saying this:
M/m isn't popular because we love men, but because it makes most men *leave us alone*.

I guess this may be the main reason why she is not posting here and why she probably will not reply to any guy.

 No.9318

>>9316

>More people in this hobby the better!


'hobby'.

'Hobby'?

'HOBBY'!!

I'm really tempted to jump right
into indeed[dot]com just to fill out some
job appliances only to enter 'snuff and guro'
into the interests & hobbies field.


MUUUUHAHA… then wait for responses…
This is gonna be FUN.
————————————————
But seriously:

Seeing it as a hobby is a very casual/healthy
way.
I like it.

 No.9319

>>9308

I've read your post more than once, now.
Still amazed, that you actually posted.
Still impressed, by the effort you put in.
Still grateful for the deep insights
you provided.

In the following I want to just focus on the
area about Arts/Artwork within the
female-dominated circles you described.

Reading your critizism about male-generated
artworks compared to female-generated
content, leads me to the impression, that
the expectations and the requirements
the female community raises against the
artistic sub-community within
are undoubtably high.
You stated yourself, that the community doesn't
easily get their hands on the stuff they desire.
(quote will follow soon.)

You may not know that I am the 'Business-Bitch'
in this thread on this thread…
… and some others too.
The Money-Monkey so to speak.

This, and my capitalistic opinions have brought
me under at least moderate fire on this board.
Because, and I quote Onix's statement from
another thread: 'Money making is not welcome here.'

So the Statement of yours that awakens my very special
attention is the following:

>So we don't have the more mainstream stuff. Even hosting images, and paying lawyers to defend the legality of your images, costs money. AO3 was originally intended to host art as well as fiction, but they couldn't afford it. So female kink exists on a shoestring budget. We have to make do a lot.


Here are my questions to you:

[1]
How, to your observations, is within the female-communities,
the overall acceptance of paid content or monetary support/exchange
for the artists catering the community.

To be more provokative:
The requirements for stuff to be good are high.
This is absolutely ok,
BUT do you put actual money where your mouth is?

I know that nobody wants to get rich…
… but somebody needs to get paid…
What do you think?


[2]
The reason, you do not have the mainstream-quality stuff MIGHT(!)
be, that no profit is to be made catering mentioned stuff.

-> Isn't it the community's investment-strength/willingness
that attracts thecatering of mainstream-quality products/arts/etc…?

-> Am I wrong with my suggestions?

 No.9320

>>9319
Trying to make women in female community instead? LOL

Think it will not going to work because all that rant is same as wage inequality it is not that they really lack money they just need something to bitch about and blame patriarchy.

 No.9321

>>9320

Please, Onix… How could you expect
that effrontery…? Not from someone that
innocent like me… ;)

No, seriously:
The post clearly states some highly demanding expectations from the consumer-side of the
equation.

I just want to ask some honest questions, tough
I deeply suspect to get a distinct set of
answers I already expect getting.

I'm not trying to make it anywhere, here on the
web. Not after we have already split hairs and
feathers about this topic.
I've learned my lesson and I know where my place
is.

I'm still convinced, that the average online-user
as a group isn't able/willing whether to attract nor
to maintain serious (mainstream/commercial-grade)
talent in this field.
So I do not even bother trying anymore.

I did some research, my 'homework' and
nailed down tons and tons of almost exclusively
female artists centered around the whole
guro-scene.
Many of them really on par with what I would objectively evaluate as serious pro-grade
performers. Very good.
According to the requirements mentioned,
they seem to tick all the right boxes.
But guess what:
The vast majority of those really well-performing
skilled artists are all DEAD.
- In an online-sense.

Dead links, abandoned homepages, for years not
updated profiles on well known platforms,
Good-bye-messages in online journals…
.. the list goes on…

dabbeling through r/guro on reddit, I found
a recent post of the seemingly last available
images of some artist (this one was trashy, but
it makes for a good example).
This artist seems to have nuked his/her pixiv-acc,
rendering all his/her works 'lost' in the ether
of the web.


Hmm… I wonder why….

Suddenly, there is (a little) outcry:
WHY, OH WHY… how could this happen, OH dear
lord, I hate that the artist has done that damage,
deleting his stuff…. blah blah blah….


If my gut-feeling is right,
We're facing a (female-centered) community
with high expectations,
but a pretty low potential when it comes to
RETURN the favor ON the INVESTMENT someone else
(the artist) has already made in advance.

I've bitched myself enough about the community
that has gathered here on gurochan.
But nobody had expectations or expressed any
form of entitlement. 'We get what we can get and
If we don't we don't even care'.
Careless… but at least honest.
————————————————

I'm honestly just thrilled to get an answer to
these questions.

 No.9322

>>9319
People are def getting paid in the JP community. Strong taboos against piracy and an emphasis on artist privacy/respect = the vast majority of paid content actually gets paid for. I personally only upload sample content for that reason. Although even then, given the limited audience I doubt artists are making stacks.

For Western artists, I think a lot of content is fandom-based or based in fandom spaces, so there is a resistance to commercialisation.

 No.9323

>>9322

Resistence to commercialization through
fandom based origin… An interesting take
on the topic.

It seems like the eastern communities,
which are the least suspected capitalist
societies (from a western perspective)
are the ones that handle the commerce the
best.

Hah… how ironic… ;)

——————————————————

I think that here in the western hemisphere,
the gender-breakdown regarding the social dynamics
of the 'hobby' isn't really such a breakdown…
more of a 'crack' on the surface.

Clearly, women and men like to see/imagine quite
similar things, the true separation in between the
genders seems to break down more on the topic
'what floats your boat/ hits your kink?', thus
separating men and women more by topic than
gender, since women seem to be far more versatile/adaptive
on the kinky side, I suspect that there is actually
a great overlap between the two genders
and the differences appear mostly on the extreme poles
of the margin-area and are … well … marginal…

As for community and engagement?
I suspect that women prefer to keep themselves amongst
each other just because the quality of the engagement
that most men provide is considered low.
Honestly, I have to strongly agree.

START INTERACTION
1. >'Here's some stuff I found somewhere online.'
2. >'What's da source of da pic ya posted?'
3. >'nice man!'
4. >'Nah, more blood would have been nice… Meh!'
5. >'moar tits!'
END INTERACTION

Therefore, women, according to the posts before,
in an effort to keep the own community clean even
adapt to pron that repulses many men.
Speaking of sexual versatility.
—————————————————–

The only thing that I cannot stand is the
imbalance between what the women-community seemingly
expects in contrast to what I suspect they provide
in return.
—————————————————–
I see a common pattern in communities assigned
to BOTH genders:

The stuff that holds the community together is
image-sharing.
The images that are shared are mostly very old ones,
which just get reposted over and over again, just
because someone wasn't aware of its existence in
the first place.

Just watch r/guro on reddit for a while…
Its repetitive…

Some recent works of new and naive artists pop up here
and there, which are neat… but really not cutting
it.
Most of the new and naive artist are soon to disappear
because they realize, that's not worth the effort.
So their 'new' stuff gets refurbished the same way
the old stuff mentioned before.
This is the mechanism that provides the community
with 'fresh' content.

*CLAP… CLAP… CLAP* - boooooring!
——————————————————

>>9308
>But at what point was someone actually going to fuck them?

The reason, why the content created or catered to
men or women is that limited in the depiction of
the entirety of the situation, not illustrating the
emotions involved or a proper fuck-scene is that it
takes time to do so.

From artist to artist:
How many Drawings, do you think, does it take
to properly depict a nice sex-scene?

How many Drawings, do you think, does it take
to properly portrait emotions?

How many Drawings, do you think, does it take
to properly build up a character that is worth
killing off?

Seriously:
I know how long it takes. And I also know that if
I was to publish my stuff online it would be
suicide to do so.

I could as well take a handful of money,
open the toilet…
count down the bills into mentioned toilet…
and then FLUSH it.


You want a well developed story, an emotional
situation, a proper fuck-scene, the telltales of
the before and after the demise…?
… just go to your bathroom…
… open the toilet…
… and look what you can find there.


;)

 No.9324

>>9323

>>I suspect that women prefer to keep themselves amongst each other just because the quality of the engagement that most men provide is considered low. Honestly, I have to strongly agree.



You must be very new on internet to believe that kind of thing.
Interaction quality between men and women on does not depend on gender, it is individual thing.
We have one female artist here on gurochan and she never had any problems.


It is totally diffrent issue.
more or less on every forum you will occasionally find a post where some dominant lesbo is asking admins to create they own female space where men are not allowed to enter. You may find such thread on gurochan as well. They usually cannot explain why but looks like they just hate men or fear them.
I observed this kind of discussion on dolcettish where one such lesbo made a demand for closed female forum but she just got promise from everyone that men will not post in her threads. It was totally unclear why as nothing interesting happened there and what was the purpose of that nonsense
I think this is similar to MGTOW issue which is also happening on male side on internet, where men are avoiding women for similar reasons.

 No.9325

>>9324

>You must be very new on internet to believe that kind of thing.


Well… I'm not really new to the internet…
but the internet feels strange sometimes.
I'll give you that.

I've heard about MGTOW… holy damn…
I don't know what is more scary. The fact, that
men are doing that or the reason why they are doing it.

I mean… Not wanting a relationship? I understand.
Relationship = low ROI.
But not even hookers and onenight stands?

That's a very sad life, men could become a monk as well.


I don't want to put lesbinon into the feminist-box.
Not yet.
I really Appreciate the high-effort post and the honest
opinions that were presented.
But that does not mean that I have to agree with everything
stated in that post.

See, I have learned to accept you for what you are.
That was difficult, but I got it.
Mostly because, dear onix you didn't demand anything from me.
You never expressed any expectations.
(but you're a dick, trust me)

;)

But if someone expresses expectations, wanting something,
the BUIZZ-BIATCH in me awakens.
And as soon as this bitch awakens it only knows one thing:

'Ya wanna HAVE something? What ya gonna GIVE for something?'

 No.9326

>>9321
Something to consider with JP "pro quality" artists vanishing is that they might be actually going pro or aiming for it. It's a much more viable career path in Japan although the pay and hours aren't good. In that case, they're going to nuke an online presence that could come back to harm them professionally.

 No.9327

>>9325
Considering MGTOW things those guys are like alcoholics anonymous.

just when they meet some woman they start naturally serving her like a queen and doing everything to please her. so to escape that temptation they avoid women entirely.

I suspect that those men hating women are in a somewhat similar position maybe they feel too weak in front of the man, or have other psychological problems


>>But that does not mean that I have to agree with everything

stated in that post.

Of course not. It would be awkward if you decided to agree on everything immediately LOL
It is not how things work. You will agree a few days or a few months later ;) and you will be saying that as your own idea LOL. Or maybe I will change my mind too by that time.

 No.9328

>>9326

That's a good point.
I know of some artists who left the grotesque
field for the same reasons.

This behavior also demonstrates that a
pro-career is not considered a viable option
within the fetish community.

Maybe because of the perception of it as
a 'hobby'. ;)
No pun intended.

The furry community behaves quite different,
which I think is cool for the artists involved,
but honestly… I prefer my animals 'well-done'
with some good amount of barbecue sauce and
a nice chilled beer.
And a well made salad as a primer.

Shit! Now it's public: I am NOT a 100% vegan.
Fuck… what should I tell my soyboy-friends now??
*scared looks*

Heeeelp! Draaaaamaaaaaa!
————————————————-
>>9327

Women are FUN.
I like them. Really.
Without would be boring.

Personally, I believe that both, the MGTOW and
the feminist-gender-quizzlefizzle, are both
just propaganda for the sheer self-purpose.
In current times it is very hard to get public
attention. Both, MGTOW and feminism profit from
public attention, because they make a living off
it.
So they have to spiral down deeper and deeper into
more and more extreme and publicly unexpected
worldviews and behaviours just to deliver the
shock-value needed to maintain attention to
stay relevant.
Just look at the media landscape.
How many Bulls*-youtube channels, how many noname-news
outlets center around both extremes,
evangelizing or bashing those.
How would those nonsense content stay afloat without
the drama created by the clashing of mentioned two
extremes. ;)

 No.9329

File: 1557891247770.png (323.87 KB, 700x1077, Unapai_0034.png)

>>9328
I think it's more about OTHERS' perceptions. Because if you want opportunities to do 'mainstream' and especially all-ages or youth-targeted works, having your professional circle find out you drew gore porn could be trouble.

Artists who are aiming for a career in adult works tend to give less of a fuck. (Pic related- this is by one of the most successful BL artists of all time)

 No.9330

>>9329
>I think it's more about OTHERS' perceptions.

With 'perception' as a hobby, I meant the
OTHER ppl, specifically aiming at the
other ppl of the kink, which make up the
consumer-side of the community.

I think, wasn't able to bring that point
along very well.
Apologies.
———————————————-
regarding the image:

THIS is what the most successful JPN BL-Artist
delivers??
I know that tastes are different,
but the very-first image you posted was
waaay more impressive and looked significantly
more well-made.
More elaborate.
Just my opinion.

But maybe this is just one 'bad-day-drawing'
from this artist.

Despite that, I don't want to judge an artist
solely on the technical quality of his/her works.
Maybe this guy/gurl is succsessful because
of their ingenuine ideas they explore.

 No.9331

>>9329
You really should post more pictures on gurochan as it is pretty nice to see something new. Especially when boys look like traps ;)


>>9330
>THIS is what the most successful JPN BL-Artist
delivers??

Most of the manga today is actually 3d generated at least so some extent or copypasted from something else. If you try to draw all that by hand you will not manage to produce enough pictures in time.

 No.9334

>>9331

>Most of the manga today is actually 3d generated at least so some extent or copypasted from something else.


I don't think this specific work is 3D generated.

I know of artists that use a 3D model as a
reference, especially when it comes to extreme
difficult perspectives or poses of the human
figure.
I heard about tracing of 3D renderings, to use
that as a foundation to work on.


What bothered me about this specific image was
just the overall sloppyness.

 No.9335

>>9331
>Especially when boys look like traps ;)

Forgot something.
You like traps?
Visit shadman. → shadbase[dot].com

During your visit at his
site, turn off the adblocker.

 No.9341

>>9335
Why anyone would dislike traps ;)
Yes, I know shadman

>>9334
It is not that bad, keep in mind that this is manga, not some fine art.
You need to mass produce those as quickly as possible and can't stay on one picture tweaking it into perfection.

 No.9342

>>9341

I'm afraid that I can't really talk much about
JPN Manga community/industry.

I can imagine that the pressure especially
concerning time is high on the creator.

But I'm too illiterate on that topic.

I think mio is the most educated of us in
this topic.
I would put my trust in what she says
over making my own assumptions.

 No.9343

As a woman who is interested in guro, it's important for me to note that my interest and my subsequent enjoyment is supremely narrow in scope. I feel like I take forever to find something I really feel is what I'm looking for. The equivalent being clicking "next page" on pornhub in a subcategory you know you like but still not finding the ONE until page 54.

The reason I think I enjoy guro is the give and take of it. I like snuff for the power dynamics between people no matter the gender–for the ultimate finalization of something irreparable. It's the concept of death and most notably brutal death that fascinates me…but only in a fictional sense. In my own fantasies, I'm usually not a player at all but like the fly on the wall observing. I like to make characters, design their personalities, and then play them out in scenarios. Sometimes those scenarios end badly and usually when I feel like having a good time with just me and my thoughts (and my hand!) that night.

Not only that but I find that MOST of the gurochan community is very polite and will go out of their way to provide a picture you're looking for (that one you forgot to save like an absolute walnut!) and just cannot find.

Most of the other people I interact with outside gurochan are women who have fantasies focused around snuff but I haven't delved deep into the specifics with them though from the fictions they write, they don't seem weighted for one gender or the other, it's pretty evenly dispersed.

As an XX woman, I feel like more women than you think are 100% freaky and would totally be down with guro just because our own made-up fantasies are sometimes a hell of a lot more weird than the basic stuff we find on here. I've read whole torture-snuff fics on Ao3 written by women that have read like violent classic literature. It's beautiful. Personally, I think women have this incredible ability to create and recreate fantasies that get internalized and may never even see the light of day because they don't find communities like this OR they don't find communities like this that are WELCOMING TO WOMEN. There's a wealth of crazy powerful gore fantasy out there in the female mind that is just untapped potential because they haven't stumbled over communities that foster their potential.

 No.9344

>>Personally, I think women have this incredible ability to create and recreate fantasies that get internalized and may never even see the light of day because they don't find communities like this OR they don't find communities like this that are WELCOMING TO WOMEN. There's a wealth of crazy powerful gore fantasy out there in the female mind that is just untapped potential because they haven't stumbled over communities that foster their potential.

Please give at least one example of any community(except those women hating freaks) where women are not welcome.

 No.9346

>>9343
>>9344

I believe one reason, why women don't recieve
the warmest welcome in a lot of communities,
that seem to be dominated by men, is the
damage the whole 3rd…4th… whatever(th)
wave feminism has dealt to the perception
of the female gender in the public eye.

The whole feminism thingy has went off the
scales and reached an amount of madness that
is unbearable for any sane person.

The Problem, that the 'boring' 'normal' women
are facing is, that seemingly everyone,
who is queer or identifies as something
else than man(XY) or woman(XX) is touting
through the horn of feminism.

Transgender woman? → speaks FOR women through feminism.
Transgender man? → speaks FOR women through feminism.
Something else? → speaks FOR women through feminism.
fucked up soyboy? → speaks FOR women through feminism.
E.T. ? → would probably 'call' for feminism?

The whole new wave of this gender-politic
fizzle-dizzle effectively occupies the natural
space of the normal, 'boring' women,
muting the voice of that female role,
because the weirdos scream the loudest.

If you're a 'boring' woman in todays society,
offering an opinion, engaging in conversation,
you get put into the 'feminist-box' early on,
because we all are still hearing the halls of
some wrong-wired motherfuckers, speaking in your
name, in our heads.

I'm not justifying this 'boxing-process',
I just want to display what is going on.
————————————————————-
Another reason, women aren't recieved that welcomed,
especially in male-dominated guro-communities might
be derived from the ORIGIN of the kink.

Many men I know of, develop that sadistic fantasies
because of some unfortunate incident in their past,
usually including a woman.
Maybe they got screwed over by a women and developed
sadistic fantasies to get 'revenge'.
(Just to illustrate an example)

For those Men/Whatever the female is the enemy.
The current political-feminist narrative feeds happily
into that kind of worldview.

For those who don't believe me,
just read some contributions of specific participants,
you will recognize a pattern there. ;)
————————————————————–
The whole situation has come that far, that a normal
regular woman has to explain herself, that she identifies
as 'XX'… how absurd….
————————————————————–
>>9344
>Please give at least one example of
>any community(except those women hating freaks) […]

Onix, I really don't want to bash on you every time
I touch the keyboard…
But don't you make a good example of someone very
unwelcoming…?
—————————————————————
>>9343
>[…]my interest and my subsequent enjoyment is supremely narrow in scope.

Please, explain further.
Some nasty tasty details would be nice.
MUUUUHAHAHA…

:))

 No.9347

>>9346
>But don't you make a good example of someone very unwelcoming…?


No, I don't think I am unwelcoming maybe I can be a bit too nice for women because they are an extreme oddity in any community which does not talk about babies and money.
But generally, I treat them the same as everyone.


I am just unwelcome to man-hating lesbos (and frigid bicthes) because they are not going to interact with you anyway, the only conversation you will have with them as a guy is being told to stay away from their sight.
But if a woman is not sexist I am nice to her too.


From the posts here, I am getting I impression that this may be exactly the problem. Those women describe they want to to have their separate safe space where men are not allowed to enter at all and only then they will feel welcome. If they don't get that safe space they usually leave.

 No.9348

> […]because they are not going to interact with you anyway[…]

So you're angry due to lack of female attention?

;)

 No.9349

>>9346

Oh I don't mind breaking it down for you. When I look into subcategories of guro, I'm looking through 1. Hangings, 2. Impalement, 3. Those "Heart" Threads. Why this is, is because usually there is at least the slightest bit of context. This can also include "Execution" threads as well. It's more than just the shocking imagery, it's the story behind the brutal deaths that's the most sexually gratifying aspect for me personally. I like the story more than anything else involved and if I can make a rich and exciting background that led to this one particular point where everything comes to an end: success! I scroll and scroll and scroll past works where it's just some person on a blank white background without any contextualization looking for something with a rich context. Sometimes that means another character involved, sometimes it means dialogue, sometimes it means just any background scene at all. What matters is that it stimulates my imagination and provides me with a setting, environment, timeline, and circumstance. I think it's the same reason some women really love to roleplay and get off on that…I'm a terrible roleplayer irl and a bad online RP partner (forgetful!) but man am I good at coming up with tales on the fly.

As for grisly, nasty deets–I'm a huge fan of vagina-mouth/vagina-chest impalement. That's just brutal as fuck! Wow! Seeing that in real life would make me cry of course, but in art and beautifully rendered? I'm a fan. When it comes to hangings, I like the images that imply struggle more than the short drop and pop sort. Something about whatever must be going on in the victim's head is fascinating! Also: why are they there? What did they do? Nothing? Horrible things? All those questions and answering them to create a character profile and then recreate it for a whole new fantasy is muy bueno.

>>9347

>maybe I can be a bit too nice for women


So, I want to preface this by saying that my interactions with men on this site and others and even in real life are just as varied and unique as my interactions with women. Men, transmen, transwomen, we're all people and we all have complex and varied experiences and emotions. Human is human is human. Yes, there are some things that men and women just don't have in common biologically (like the way women's bodies store fat that translates into cellulite when scrunched up) but I've absolutely NOTHING against men as a gender or sex.

Nevertheless, when I see anyone, male or female, reduce women (or any other sex/gender) to a fundamentally misguided stereotype that seems to derive from a distinct lack of interaction with said gender/sex…that doesn't strike me as "nice" in the least. Nor does it strike me as polite, welcoming, or in any way/shape/form kind. People who have preconceived notions about an entire subcategory of people and speak of them as though there can be not a shred of deviation from what they consider to be the norm (of something they cannot possibly understand due to lack of firsthand experience in the matter) do not give the impression of being "too nice." In fact, they're not nice at all. They're mainly people I simply ignore for the simple fact that in life, it is much more efficient to keep oneself away from rudeness. Not to mention, it is also much safer and less uncomfortable to not associate with rude people.

Forgive me, Onix. But from your conduct here, you do not strike me as a nice nor welcoming person. Not like B.B., who has asked relevant questions about the topic at hand and has not been confrontational toward anyone involved in the lengthy conversation already at hand. My perceptions of tone within text and my interpretations of your statements has led me to the conclusion that you find yourself to be a very "nice guy" and I truly do believe that you could be. But not right now. So, with that stated, should you require answers from me in the future, I will answer them should they fall under the essential topic of this thread and reserve the right not to answer should they be in any way distasteful.

I look forward to our conversations, both B.B. and Onix and I'll be happy to provide a perspective should you need it.

 No.9350

>>9348
1. I am not angry. I just have the policy to treat people the same way as they treat me.

2 considering women I actually dislike them for the reasons described above. It is not that I lack female attention or can't get them but I find most women totally useless and boring because they lack creativity and their interests are limited to very plain things and they are also neurotic like hell.
If there are some exceptions to that I would be very happy to meet them at least online.

 No.9351

>>9349

Wow! Thanks for the elaborate response.
A very interesting read, indeed.
Enjoyed it.

I feel a little bit abashed, because you
portrayed me as a much nicer person as
I truly am.

But I'll get over it. ;)
———————————————
For me, personally, the insight you provided
with your reply resembles something like the
'the last missing piece of a puzzle'.

It confirmed many of my preexisting
expectations but also named stuff that I didn't
really understood in a more approachable
way.

Good stuff.
———————————————–
For me, there are two questions that seem
to be the next logical step to take:

Now, that we got a rough understanding,
about how the genders 'break down'…

[1]
… How can we enhance the overall experience
online by means of interaction and engagement
for both genders?

Clearly, having men and women interact on the
same topic is advantageous.
It's far more interesting to exchange ideas
with the sex/gender I am into.
Really.
10/10 , would jerk off to it.

I'm not a big fan of the separation that is
obviously going on between fem./masc. .

Let's 'tear down that wall'! -Kennedy style ;)


[2]
… How can we improve our artworks (images/writing)
to be more 'persuasive'?

The business-bitch(TM) inside me has a gut-feeling,
that by targeting female tastes will impress many
masculine tastes as well, maybe offering new/fresh
ideas, aka. better fappening experiences.

That doesn't mean, that there has
to be M/M stuff everywhere,
but the overall idea of:

A: communicating context, even in an abstract way
B: communicating emotion, of both sides of the action
C: delivering a statement, more than a story.

I suspect that the female fantasy is more similar
to how we experience 'dreams'

Artistically spoken, it's more the *collage* type,
than the *comic* type,
where comic is interpreted strictly as a sequential
order of events.
More vague, less concrete, emotion over action.
—————————————————–

Maybe I'm wrong… bash me.

 No.9352

>>9351
>A: communicating context, even in an abstract way
>B: communicating emotion, of both sides of the action
>C: delivering a statement, more than a story.

You are absolutely not wrong. In fact, I love all of these ideas. I don't think it's a matter of gendered characters, I think it's a matter really of everything you've brought up in this response. Emotion and context over shock factor and celebrating the DEFINING MOMENTS of the action and using those images to stitch together the bare bones of a fantasy that can be built upon in the imagination. I mean, I think there are artists who already do most of these things and developing artists who are growing into their craft whose work will eventually come into this formation naturally.

I really love seeing developing artists who don't shy away from this kind of artwork. (It doesn't help that they get shamed out of doing it on Twitter or other places "purists" decide to rear their ugly heads.) So I don't think it's a matter of placing expectations down on artists but more like placing options and suggestions. Obviously artists should draw and write whatever makes THEM happy first and foremost. Sharing those creations helps find a common bond between human beings…now…of course, that sounds so pedantic in a discussion board on Gurochan of all places, but I truly believe it no matter the context.

With that all said, I think the preference of m/m or m/f or f/f guro is mainly based on the individual and so what I've described, the contextualization of guro images and the rich fantasy-driven sexualization of those images may, in fact, simply be my own individual "kink" or preference! But being a woman, and having spoken to and experienced many other works written and created by women, it seems that we've all got at least some level of that fantasy-generator in our heads that leads us toward requiring context for gratification. I mean…look at all the porn written by women for NBC's Hannibal and all the porn that is currently being created by women for Killing Eve…the genders don't seem to matter! It's all in the story!

Additionally, I love how you come at this very business-like and as though it is a problem to be solved! Very project manager-like of you! I think you've really got it, honestly, and there's nothing I have to add, I'm just being chatty. Although I should note that it's funny that you mention that female fantasy is like dreams: So many women DAYDREAM their fantasies and will build them over the course of an entire day to get them juuuust right so that the whole "movie" will play out later for the "fappening" as you call it. Since nobody can tell that a woman is aroused in the middle of work or school, we're daydreaming about freaky sex stuff practically all the time! And that's a pretty universal experience–not just me! So it's so funny that you should mention that!

 No.9353

>>9308

Also: As a straight, cis woman, I'd like to second all of this post. There is absolutely nothing about this breakdown that I would change. It's pretty much spot-on. Everything about what she's said is perfection and very much my opinion on the matter.

 No.9354

>>9330
Hah, BB, I don't know why people like this artist (Maki Murakami) so much either. Maybe it's because she was ahead of her time on the kinkiness level of her works. Her activity is mainly mid 90s to 00s, when lots of BL was so tame.

>>9350
Onix, it really comes across that you dislike women. "Interesting" women are rare, but so are "interesting men" – when you both (A) interact in very male online spaces and (B) come into interactions with women with disrespect and negative assumptions and put the onus on them to disprove you, it's unlikely that you will meet a woman who wants to share "interesting" views with you. JB is being very courteous to you and

Look at everything you said in this thread about "women" as a group, and imagine if somebody said something similar about "men" or made that assumption about you specifically. Like, I've interacted with actual
self-proclaimed misandrist lesbian separatists whose views of men are less negative and dehumanising than your views on women.

>>9352
That's a really good sentiment! And, Hannibal :-) Good stuff!

I wonder if the appeal of gurochan is limited to women because of the 'context' thing you mentioned. I don't care for isolated images, either, vs. stories/comics/games. Hm, here's a thought. If we crosslinked more between /lit/ and AO3, maybe there would be more interchange. Because I think AO3's "Dead Dove: Do Not Eat/Hydra Trash Party" crew and /lit/ have similar interests, but each community doesn't think of the other. Like, I wrote pain/snuff fanfic for LJ at some point and posted it on AO3 but didn't think of crossposting to /lit/… seeing how many people here aren't aware of AO3, and how many AO3 user never would consider gurochan, just raising awareness brings potential.


BTW, this thread surprised me, seeing that all the women here so far like female victim. I wonder if I was correct in my assumption that most female guro fans prefer male victims and congregate on other male victim-centric sites, or it's quite possible by my own biases I underestimated the diversity of people's tastes by filtering it through my own fetishes.

Thanks everyone, this has turned into a really fun discussion :-)

 No.9355

>>9349
>Forgive me, Onix. But from your conduct here, you do not strike me as a nice nor welcoming person.

If we were talking on another topic like discussing the story you wrote or your fantasies or kinks I would be much nicer and welcoming and probably I would provide you more attention because you are woman not because your work is so good to be worth of that attention and this is why I said I can be to nice as being nicer than you deserve it not because I am some kind of "nice guy".(neither have any desire to be a "nice guy")
Many men will try to please you even more because I treat both genders pretty equally unlike most men who practically turn into slaves for every woman.
Maybe if you are used to that kind of behavior, you my consider me being impolite simply because I disagree with something you say, even if I and just opposing your claims.



I also asked you a prety relevant and moderately polite question, asking you to provide any examples of communities where women are unwelcome because according to my experience everyone is kissing women's asses and do not even dare to disagree with what those women say. most women make the same claim here, but none made even slightest attempt to defend their claim or provide any examples when they were somehow mistreated because they are women. Even men are parroting the same claim which they never observed themselves.



>People who have preconceived notions about an entire subcategory of people and speak of them as though there can be not a shred of deviation from what they consider to be the norm


You usually need to start with something as if you meet a lion in the jungle you typically expect that it will try to eat you. Same with people you have to start with something.
I do not deny that exceptions happen but the absolute majority of people fit common stereotypes at least to some extent.

Another issue is that I am not interested in those usual submissive women or dominant bicthes. I am looking for women who are both at once and this is extremely uncommon.
I will not try to please you. You have to fight to get wahst you want and I will also fight back as well and most important of all you must know when to give up or start negotiating things. this fighting is actually needed to show how much you want something

As if you were my girlfriend and you demand me to give you my ice cream but if you try to use moderate violence to get It I may give up and give it to you after a short fight.(of course, this only applies to small things or you can't solve serious issues like that) Typical women can't do that. I am not a guy willing to walk on eggshells trying to read female minds or please women. If you are not ready to fight for yourself you are rejected. I have totally no interest in a relationship where I have to constantly think If I am doing something right or wrong. I do whatever i want, you do whatever you want and then we solve disagreements by fighting.

Of course, this is my personal preference. Most other men look for submissive women or dominant women.
It is super rare to find anyone who is willing to switch even for the roleplay.

 No.9356

>>9354
>Onix, it really comes across that you dislike women. "Interesting" women are rare, but so are "interesting men" – when you both (A) interact in very male online spaces and (B) come into interactions with women with disrespect and negative assumptions and put the onus on them to disprove you, it's unlikely that you will meet a woman who wants to share "interesting" views with you.

I totally agree. Interesting men are rare. most are very primitive as well or single minded.( but interesting women are even less common as if interesting men happen to be 1 of 1000 interesting women will be 1 of 10 000 or 100 000. )
I do not say all that to every woman as from of greeting, we are discussing this issue here so I describe what i know. you are free to disagree or prove me wrong just don't thing that it will be easy.

A. This is why I am looking for any of those female spaces where i could interact with interesting women

B. if woman is going to be scared or hurt by something like that she is not interesting

>Look at everything you said in this thread about "women" as a group, and imagine if somebody said something similar about "men" or made that assumption about you specifically. Like, I've interacted with actual

self-proclaimed misandrist lesbian separatists whose views of men are less negative and dehumanising than your views on women.

I never made any assumptions about anyone here personally unlike those misandrist lesbos. I am always willing to give anyone a chance. There is nobody whom I will reject under any circumstances unless they reject me first. Also I have absolutely no problems with anyone who will express any kind ow views about anyone even if they express those views about me.
In fact this even counts as interesting woman is he can say such things.
You cannot be interesting if you are afraid to offend someone or say what you think.

 No.9357

>>9354

The idea of cross-linking between /lit/ and Ao3 is a really interesting one. I think one of the main issues is that /lit/ really isn't a format that's conducive to authors who are creating the type of work that makes itself known on Ao3. It's lacking in a lot of fundamental aspects and indeed, I feel like we'd be seeing more links OUT to Ao3 and less links IN to gurochan which would create a bit of an imbalance just due to preference and user-friendliness. It seems to me like it would be a great idea to get some more fresh content flowing though. There are some insanely great torture porns out there (I just read one this morning that had some kidney-removal and everything). I think my main concern is just that in terms of ease of reading, /lit/ kinda…well..doesn't do it. Gurochan seems far more suited to image hosting and doesn't mind admitting to its shortcomings.

As for your aside, I think we all kind of look through the lenses of our own kinks and what we find to be appealing…it's important to chat about things like this in order to gain a better perspective on where people are coming from. That way when we do create content that's fresh and new, we can hold new possibilities in the back of our minds. It's always good to be able to look at things and say "oh, I like that" and have a community that replies back: "That's valid, we like that too!" It's a very human thing to want to know that we're not alone. Loneliness, after all, is one of the worst human experiences.

 No.9361

Hi, i dont have time to read all this but Im very happy some women came into the debate to give their piece of the story.

I have incredible amounts of respect and admiration for the frustration you go through to explain all this to us.

Ive been in a lot of women owned porn spaces now and theyre definitely different. A lot better. Basically, theyre treated like a bar would be in real life: people are banned for disturbing others. The communities are nicer and usually fairly sizeable, but you wouldnt get invited to one unless you were being social in the guro community for a long time AND you were really nice and docile.

Anyone saying anything along the likes of "lulzor women online are fake pics or it didnt happen" isnt grtting an invite. Anybody who jumps into girls DMs without any reason to except "hi omg youre a girl, thats hot." Isnt getting an invite. Anybody who jumps into chat and says "I love pics of girls eyeballs getting fucked by orangutangs" and never talks about anything else isnt getting an invite.

Basically, if you cant contribute to the social aspect of a place and you think "lol were all anonymous online, everyones a dick so I will be too, idgaf what other people think, theyre weak if they dont follownmy hard truths or get my quirky humor"

Those types of people dont last more than a couple days in a chat with more than 30% girls. Seemsnto me like girls just go where theyre treated okay and where no one makes fun of you for saying you just had a good glass of tea. Not to say that its all prim and proper fluffy girl talk, but it has to be a place where thar conversation doesnt get cut off by someone saying "awh yeah, tea is hot. I bet you would love burning my dick with that hot tea mommy."

Thats what most of the internet acts like, and thats why female communitirs thrive well in more large but private, strictly controlled sectors.

In my suuuper humble opinion, im kinda guessing and Im also at work so I dont have a ton of time to be accurate and careful with the knowledge im trying to disseminate like a lot of the people here.

But basically, if someone says theyre a girl and starts talking about their experience as a girl, just listen to them. Theyre the expert on their own life, so Im not liking that Im seeing men telling men what being a girl is like online, and what girls like and how girls act. Ill read more of this thread later and post more aviut my experiences if I can bare to but Im going to need more rational people to speak up and show that theyre here and theyre listening, or Ill get too angry as I read.

 No.9362

>>9361
Oh shit, you literally described everything I hate about women but this is even worse than I imagined.

If female communities are like that I rather chose Stalin gulag than female community to be. Probably this is what feminists are trying to turn all world into.

Some people complain that I am wrong in what I believe about women but if what you say is correct I think I was too optimistic.


On the other hand I was is 2 communities with female admins and yes it was kinda similar like that.
The problem is that you must always think what you say because you have reincarnation of Hitler and Stalin in one person watching you.

 No.9363

>>9362
Im sure some of the girls thst have been talking here will have corrections and redactions from my description. Really there is no one type of girl, theyre just people who happen to have vaginas. I dont know what youre imaging when I talk about female owned spaces, but you really seem to think its something alien…

 No.9364

>>9361
>Ive been in a lot of women owned porn spaces now and theyre definitely different. A lot better. Basically, theyre treated like a bar would be in real life: people are banned for disturbing others. The communities are nicer and usually fairly sizeable, but you wouldnt get invited to one unless you were being social in the guro community for a long time AND you were really nice and docile.

That may seem like a nice community on the surface, but it sounds horrible. It's like the sort of neighborhood you get with a homeowners association. Everything may look nice on the surface, but in the background it's a totalitarian elitist community that's ruled with an iron fist. It's far better to find a community that is free and welcomes people as they are, rather than a community that demands people conform to a mold. If you never see anyone behaving badly in a community, that's a sure sign that this is not a good place.

Certainly you might enjoy your elitist community for a while, until it decides that you're not good enough and kicks you out, or until you realize that you are forced to constantly pretend to be someone you're not just to prevent yourself from being kicked out.

This seems akin to when Tumblr banned adult content. Suddenly a large number of people got to feel what it was like when a community decides you're not good enough and kicks you out. It's doubtful that many people learned anything from that, but we can hope that some communities became at least a little more welcoming.

 No.9365

>>9363
> Really there is no one type of girl, they're just people who happen to have vaginas

You said it yourself that this is how female communities work yes, of course, there are exceptions but if even you decided to generalize it must be something serious:

>I dont know what youre imaging when I talk about female owned spaces, but you really seem to think its something alien…


This is the line where you describe everything:

>>Thats what most of the internet acts like, and *that's why* female communities *thrive* well in more large but private, *strictly controlled sectors*.


the keyword here is *strictly controlled* or how I prefer to say it tyrannical and oppressive.

If you used stronger words you would have written the same as I wrote several posts before LOL.
you just use words with a different emotional load.

In that sentence, you describe what kind of community women desire and why they don't come to gurochan. This is because it is not *strictly controlled*.


Also here:
The communities are nicer and usually fairly sizeable, but *you wouldn't get invited to one unless you were being social in the guro community for a long time AND you were really nice and DOCILE*.

In other words, this is a demand to be politically correct and all kinds of controversial discussions or opinions are forbidden. Your role in that community is limited to kissing butts of other members and admins, pointlessly praising them and you must earn your place by doing that.

This follows typical female behavior, as if men solve issues by fighting, women solve everything by exclusion ostracization and rejection, You do something wrong offend someone and that's it, you are out of community no confrontation is allowed.
Even if it happens that some girl is not like that she has either submit to the community or be rejected entirely.

Male community is typically different because nobody gives a shit of who you are. If we have a common interest that's enough.
Of course, tyrannical men also exist but male communities usually lack that extreme unity.

 No.9366

>>9364
He described it way better than me.

 No.9368

>>9361
>>9364
Female-controlled servers, say on Discord or the like are…hm…I should say, SOMEWHAT like this. There's certainly more problem-solving going on behind the scenes so that everyone can have a space that helps them be themselves. For example, Discord has the ability to create channels. Most of the time, in plenty of the servers I've been on that are female-run, the channel that serves the purpose of being a free-for-all or "catch-all" channel for chatting and shooting the shit is run fairly and without much input from the moderators. You see, the things that some men claim to hate about the types of servers that moderate and have active moderators translates to me as something I'm sure you DIDN'T intend to convey.

That is: "I want to be a part of a server where I can be myself" translates into "I want to be a part of a server where I can abuse people and face no consequence." Now, I know that's not what you mean but that's what the moderators are there to prevent. That's all they do. When someone begins to abuse other members, it creates silence on a board or a channel. When you make people feel anger or shame or frustrations, they will LEAVE YOUR SITE. You can't run a functional community when members are claiming to "just be themselves" but they're abusing other members. Then you have a PR problem and it's caused by your own members. It's like if your neighborhood relies on revenue from tourism but one of your residents is committing crimes against those very tourists. It's not feasible to run a community that way. This is why lesbinon hasn't responded to you after her initial statement and this is why many women choose not to interact within the gurochan community. They lurk. I've been lurking for years. Why? Because I've seen disparaging remarks made against women and decided that I wouldn't like to be a vocal part of a community that couldn't see value in me. That was my decision based on the factors at hand. But if you ask for a female perspective, I'm willing to give it.

In female-run communities, there is a sense that if you have an issue, the mods are approachable and the community as a whole has an end goal that everyone treats each other with respect. This does NOT translate into "everyone agrees with everyone else" it translates into "everyone respects each other's differences and provides support and encouragement when necessary." There's far less judgement in such communities (despite the fact that you guys must think we're all judging each other all the time, that's actually the opposite of the truth) and much MUCH more sharing and congratulating and overall happiness.

I've been a moderator in an A/B/O themed Discord server for over a year now and we're probably one of the most active A/B/O servers on Discord at current. We're a very agreeable bunch and we accept any man or woman who finds the link to join. In the year or so that we've been active, we've had to ban ONE person and I did it myself. Why? Because they were verbally abusive. They did not understand that their words and actions on the server were causing others to shy away from commenting or interacting and were confrontational and aggressive when mods politely asked them to refrain from abusive language. Their excuse for their conduct was "that's just me." Well ok, but if that's just you, you're going to have to create your own space to be you and not inflict yourself on others who didn't consent to being abused. Nobody's going around saying "how dare you share this picture of a bunny on my server, BAN." In these spaces, one doesn't have to constantly "check" themselves…it's simply common sense. Your own sense of decency and a sense for "time and place" is what guides you in your interactions. I know some people have trouble with this. Some people have issues with boundaries, understanding hyperbole, understanding sarcasm, recognizing social cues–but that's not really the issue. We can handle these issues. We do it all the time. The issue is that women don't like to be harassed or treated poorly. So we just…don't tolerate it.

It's the same reason I simply don't respond to rude people. I don't suffer fools and I don't expect anyone else to either.

 No.9369

>>9368
And well, this comes down to community standards as well as just moderation. Guro tumblr didn't have a moderator, but if somebody had a shitty attitude – maybe misogyny, or just a general asshole – they were ignored or people argued back until they were chased out, because the initial base set the tone. It's the same thing the chan sites do. But 4chan had an initial base that skewed male, and there was a group of people on /r9k/ actively harassing women and posting hateful stuff to get them to leave just because they were female. That site turned into a shithole.

I don't think there's value in welcoming everyone in general. If one person is near-universally disliked because they don't act respectfully, then acting otherwise is just catering that serves nobody. That goes beyond gender and more into social norms.

I actually found the process of arguing with interlopers on Tumblr until they leave more unpleasant than having a reasonable moderator to ban people. It's more 'free' but it's an atmosphere with more hostility. For all this stuff about freedom, when an unmoderated community reaches a certain size, it tends to either be overcome with hostility to the point that non-combative types would start leaving, or achieve some "harmony" by alienating anybody who doesn't fit the hivemind. Tumblr and 4chan were both awful on that. Gurochan is small enough it doesn't have too many obnoxious people, but that 'anything goes' attitude provides a limit to growth. I'm not suggesting it change, it is what it is… but people might filter through /dis/ and leave when they find communities with more pleasant norms.

 No.9371

>>9368

I agree with you soooo fully, and you more or less said what I was thinking but didnt have time to type.

In my time moderating Ive had to ban:
People sending their dick pics to thirteen year olds on other servers
People who ask other people to cut themselves
People who literally try to berate artists, calling their art shitty in DMs, to devalue their work so that they can demand requests for the purposes of critique
Another person who tried to make people cut themselves and show it. In this case, the person they were pestering was specifically trying to stop cutting, and they had been encouraging that person to go back.

Plus, about 5 or 6 times Ive had to fucking coddle some guy who ran off a girl. "Will you talk to whatever-chan for me? She blocked me and I wanna know why" and whatever chan will always day "please dont tell him you saw me online, hes mega creepy."

Half the time that someone needs to talk to me as a mod its because theyre sulking after literally running someone out of my server, and they want to act like the other person is being sensitive or unreasonable. I find it hella frustrating and a waste of my time.

The longer I manage these things the more those types of things exhaust me.

Anyway, lets talk about free places.

There are places that are free and then there are places where men jusr assert their dominance, literally, over women, and call anything disagreeing with that encroaching on their freedom to express themselves.

Im talking about servers where if you have a female name, the mod changes it to bitch and decides your his slave. Anyone who disagrees is called and sjw or a white knight and argued with until they leave or get banned. Ive seen that happen.

I was also in a server where the moderator literally demanded everyone give themselves a role based on their sex, if youre lying or you dont show it, youre banned tomorrow.

But Ive also seem nearly ruleless servers. Women and girls existed in those ones, there were obviously underaged girls. But also a girl that posted pictures where she hugged dead animals. Tons of real gore. The leader there rabted about censorship and stuff a lot but in general he was really good to his members and even had some limits on the undeaged users.

My point being, honestly:

Are you talking about a server where everyone can do what they want?

Or a server where you can do what you want?

And, is there a point at which stopping someone from acting in a certain way *is* allowing someone else the freedom to act in their own way? Like, if you allow murder, youre enabling one person to take the right to live grom another. Similarly, if you allow aggressive behavior, youre just allowing brash people to take the ability to speak from sensitive people.

What I find mostly though is that brash, cruel, or weird people silence everyone else. I'll literally get 3 or 4 messages when someone posts something like
"Lol, I wanna cook a horse pussy and eat it."

People will screenshot that, send it to me, and lurk silently. Now personally I wouldnt ban that guy necessarily, but its that kind of thing. Situations where one person makes everyone else feel uncomfortable speaking.

 No.9372

>>9369
This is a really good comment too.

Do remember, were setting the norms now. Gurochan shrank so much in the past few months after going down that were now setting the base.

I dont know if I'll be here forever or how much more development work I can do on the site, but keep talking! Keep talking! I want it to be nice.

 No.9373

>>9369
>I don't think there's value in welcoming everyone in general. If one person is near-universally disliked because they don't act respectfully, then acting otherwise is just catering that serves nobody.

There is value especially in welcoming everyone, because there is a huge step between welcoming everyone and turning away the first person. It changes a place from something open and inclusive to something exclusive where someone has the power to choose who gets in. That power is bound to be abused eventually, no matter how many good intentions the person has. After you use it once to get rid of someone, how can we justify not getting rid of everyone who even slightly annoys you?

That one person that we're kicking out has value, just like any other person. This person is not just an avatar on a website, but has actual feelings and contributions to make. No matter how terrible they are, we're still talking about a person with fundamental value. At very least, as long as this person remains, the rest of us know that we're a little bit more secure due to not being the worst person on the site. Once people start getting kicked off, it's only time until you're no longer far enough into the in-group to be safe. It can be a tricky skill to imagine yourself in someone else's shoes, so it's good to keep in practice. Always remember, what happens to them can happen to you.

Certainly people on the internet can be tremendously annoying, but it's better to live free and deal with annoying people than to live in fear. Trolls and internet racists and their like can be terrible in their way, but ultimately they can't do any real harm. It's just words on a screen that you can choose not to read. The real harm can only come from the people with power over you, like the moderators with the power to ban and to threaten people with banning. That risks kicking you out of a community that you've come to enjoy, and that's far more real. If the trolls seem bad now, imagine them having moderator powers and then perhaps we can comprehend what real badness is.

Having power over people is a terrible thing. That first step should not be taken lightly, and if there is a place that doesn't take that first step then we should treasure it and put up with enormous amounts of annoyance from trolls and jerks and whatever. People behaving badly is the beautiful music of freedom and we should love it, even if we do sometimes want to beg them to stop. Hate the trolls for being horrible, but love the site that lets them do it, if you're lucky enough to find one.

 No.9374

>>9373

I respect your opinion.
I disagree.

>That one person that we're kicking out

has value, just like any other person.
[-BBraker] >>9373

>[…]as normally you have value

for what you do for other people
but the idea that you have value
just by yourself without the need
to make any effort at all
is actually putting yourself
on the very top of that society.
[-Onix] >>9263
——————————————

Onix,
describe the value,
that you provided on this thread.

BBraker,
assuming you're right,
and every human has value by itself
beyond doubt and that value is equal
amongst all humans,
doesn't the summed value of the many,
we try to protect
outweigh the value of the few we try
to protect them from?

 No.9375

>>9374
>assuming you're right, and every human has value by itself beyond doubt and that value is equal amongst all humans, doesn't the summed value of the many, we try to protect outweigh the value of the few we try to protect them from?

The value of people can't be compared since every person is unique. It's like comparing apples to oranges. If we ban a person, we can never get the equivalent of that person back even if we bring in a hundred new people, so in a way every individual is worth more than a hundred others.

More importantly, there is only one thing that stands out as being seriously threatening, and that is the potential for the abuse of power by moderators. No one who has no power over you can ever truly threaten you, so if we use heavy-handed moderation to try to protect people, all we're really accomplishing is giving power to the real threat, while stamping out a paper tiger.

 No.9376

>>9368
>Because I've seen disparaging remarks made against women and decided that I wouldn't like to be a vocal part of a community that couldn't see value in me. That was my decision based on the factors at hand. But if you ask for a female perspective, I'm willing to give it.

You must be confusing something or I have to attribute that to female logic again. Comments about women are not comments about YOU unless you claim that all women are like hivemind borg and they are all same. what is said about women, in general, should not concern you at all as individual, because if you disagree with those claims you are different from them all. If you disagree wahst is said about women you can try to argue and prove that claim wrong if you care or you can ignore it if you don't care, but taking them personally just because you are a woman is the pinnacle of idiocy.

Even if you come to some incel-female-hater forum where guys discuss how they murder women you can still calmly discuss things with them and prove them wrong. If you get in one on one conversation very likely even those extreme haters will make 180-degree turn and start kissing your butt in private conversation. Individually we have good expectations about people we meet even if we hate them as a group.

It is still up to individual judgement, what kind of people we see good or bad for ourselves, so it is not necessary to disagree every time on what people say about you as well.

Finally, you still did not provide any examples of porn/art communities where women are unwelcome or mistreated. as if it happened to you that you post some story or picture and get bad responses or that your opinion was somehow disrespected because you are a woman.


>>9371
Those situations look like reasonable things why ban people but it depends on how it was done:

>In my time moderating Ive had to ban:

>People who ask other people to cut themselves

How exactly you ask someone to cut themselves? of course, if someone is bluntly demanding you to slice your wrists and post the photo that's just stupid and worth of ban for stupidity.

But you can do it in other ways too, for example, talk with that former cutter and tell her that you love women who cut themselves or you just like such content. Or you can say something that "cuts are so sexy" or argue that "cutting is OK" and what you do in that situation? Do you ban someone for the wrong kink or wrong idea?


>People who literally try to berate artists, calling their art shitty in DMs, to devalue their work so that they can demand requests for the purposes of critique.


Same thing here: calling someone's art shitty is plain dumb. If it is really shitty, everyone already knows that including the artist. But you can do that with sarcasm like "You draw perfect horse butts" or you can provide totally valid criticism about what is wrong in that artwork.

So where you draw the line? someone says "the colors of your picture seem to be little off" and the response of the mod is "How dare you to berate artists! BAN for you!"



>Are you talking about a server where everyone can do what they want?

>Or a server where you can do what you want?
>And, is there a point at which stopping someone from acting in a certain way *is* allowing someone else the freedom to act in their own way? Like, if you allow murder, youre enabling one person to take the right to live grom another. Similarly, if you allow aggressive behavior, youre just allowing brash people to take the ability to speak from sensitive people.


A server where everyone can do what they want, except spam.

If someone starts discussing trade war with China or feminism on the dickgirl thread such messages have to be removed because this is not the place for that not because it is somehow wrong and the poster has to be warned not to do it here. ideally, the server could have a function to move parts of thread into a special zone where people can continue their flame war freely without disrupting the experience of those who are not interested.
If it is an appropriate place and appropriate topic it should be allowed, no matter how offensive it is for sensitive people.
either way, bans are unnecessary, you can just delete inappropriate messages. or in some extreme cases demand people not to talk to each other or mention each other in any way.

The purpose of the moderator must be to manage server related issues not interpersonal relationships of people there.
Unlike real life where you can actually hut someone or take their life everyone is equal on the internet and nobody can hurt anyone.
I think an exception is when someone is revealing some private information about someone else with intent to damage their reputation.


>>9374
>>Onix, describe the value, that you provided on this thread.

I am providing value on other threads. Here I am just presenting my opinion like everyone else.
Normally, value of everyone of us is supposed to be close to zero over a long time.

Just like under capitalism, when you buy something that has value but also give back something of equal value making overall balance zero
if it is not zero somebody was ripped off.
The more value you provide the more you can take back.

 No.9377

>>9376
>Comments about women are not comments about YOU unless you claim that all women are like hivemind borg and they are all same.

That is a very astute observation that really gets to the core of the issue. Because women are obviously not a hivemind, anything said about women can never apply generally to women. There will always be plenty of women who won't fit into any mold anyone tries to put women into. Whenever anyone says women are this or women are that, the real message we get is that the person making these statements is a fool who doesn't understand that people are unique.

If a fool is trying to push you into a mold, then there is good reason to expect the fool will make you seem to fit. One can hardly expect to reason with a fool. Anything you say to a fool will most likely be misinterpreted, since we are talking to a fool. If we don't like the mold that the fool is trying to push us into, then it is going to be a very frustrating experience. It doesn't drive people away because they are ashamed of fitting the mold; it drives people away because they are annoyed by the experience of talking to fools.

If we don't want to give the impression of being fools, it is better to clarify that we're not trying to talk about a hivemind by saying "some women" or "many women" or "60% women" or whatever.

 No.9378

>>9375

BBraker, I see that ethics are strong in you
and I salute that.
I absolutely agree with you upon the point you
made concerning the abuse of power by the single
person in charge.
Maybe a more democratic approach for distribution
of that power might help as well as a separation
of concerns.
You might notice, that the closer we come to
a possible solution, the closer we get to the
'real thing'. (actual politics)

But the first point you made, that humans are
not comparable to each other isn't really to my
taste.
I admit, It sounds 'right' but I don't think
its pragmatic.
In a perfect world, I would agree with you on
that point, but we don't live in that world.

In reality, decisions have to be made
and the process of decicion-making has to be
achievable in a practical fashion.

I highly doubt, that, judging from your style
of conduct, you may ever get in touch with
the 'iron fist'.

So let me ask you:
Why do you stand up for the rights of the very
people that would happily shit on yours,
if the situation would provide them an opportunity?

Don't get me wrong.
I believe that every Person has value/rights
from the very beginning of their existence.
But it is this persons duty to preserve this
natural given value/right.
As soon as this person 'crosses the line',
he/she sacrifices those natural given rights
for doing so.

 No.9379

>>9378
>Why do you stand up for the rights of the very people that would happily shit on yours, if the situation would provide them an opportunity?

We can only have rights if everyone has them, including the people we hate most. The moment rights are taken away from some people, we have to recognize that these rights could also be taken away from us. Because we failed to defend the rights of others, we are put under siege by the people whose job is now to judge us and decide whether we are worthy.

It's ultimately a matter of taste, but personally I don't fear horrible people when they have no power over me, so I don't mind chatting with them. I might even be able to learn about why they think that way and help them see the world a little differently. In contrast, when the iron fist starts to close in and people are being banned and frightened into silence, that's scary. That's why we should stand up for the rights of horrible people.

>In reality, decisions have to be made and the process of decicion-making has to be achievable in a practical fashion.


If freedom is impractical, then perhaps we should strive to be impractical. We can't achieve anything wonderful by insisting that it would be too hard.

 No.9381

>>9378
I think you are confusing internet with the real world.
you can't kill or harm anyone on the internet unless that person shared real-life details with you.
So if you are so pragmatic keep that fact in mind.

>>9377
While technically you are right practically it makes no sense, everyone has to be smart enough to understand that people are different and such statements are just generalizations. Even Gestapo had Jews working for them regardless of what kind of attitude they had towards Jews in general

Just when you write your postal address you do not specify that this is on the planet earth there is no point to add word "most" to word women every time. and I doubt if this will change anything in how it is perceived by women.

For some reason this kind of reference is only offensive when you refer to women, men usually do not personalize this. And if you refer to entire humanity nobody takes it personally. If I say humans are stupid people will just laugh and say "yes totally true" and give their own examples of human stupidity but if you say "women are stupid" you will face outrage.
in fact, I believe, even if you will refer to one specific woman other women will still personalize that and assume that this applies to them too.


I think this taking everything personally is a pretty specific genetic female trait, which can be used in various ways to manipulate women if necessary. It can be useful if you are trying to pick up women to get them in bed but also annoying because you have to be extra careful in what you say.

 No.9382

>>9381
>There is no point to add word "most" to word women every time. and I doubt if this will change anything in how it is perceived by women.

It's hard to say what might be going on in the mind of another. For what little it's worth, it surely affects the way I perceive such statements. A single word changes a statement from one that is apparently intended to apply universally to a statement which more accurately reflects our intended meaning. There's no downside to that, even if most people fail to appreciate the difference.

Unfortunately there are crazy people who view women like they were a separate species and these people really do expect that generalizations about women are actually universal. It's probably best if we don't give people the mistaken impression that we think that way.

>For some reason this kind of reference is only offensive when you refer to women, men usually do not personalize this.


It is rare to find a person who isn't annoyed by being insulted, especially if the insult is unearned. If we label any group as being one thing or another, then many of the people in that group who doesn't match our characterization are going to be annoyed at being mischaracterized. Being male doesn't make a person immune to insults. The only way to avoid that is to make it clear that we're not talking about those people, either by saying "most" or by making it clear that we're not serious.

>If I say humans are stupid people will just laugh.


That's a special case. When we insult humanity, we're all in the same boat. So long as we're all stupid, we can all laugh about it. Plus it's usually pretty obvious that anyone saying that isn't serious. If we try calling a person stupid instead of calling humanity stupid, it rarely goes as pleasantly.

>I think this taking everything personally is a pretty specific genetic female trait.


It would be so much better to somehow rephrase that so it doesn't seem to be saying that every female takes everything personally. There's no reason to be insulting vast numbers of people when all we have to do is say it slightly differently to more accurately represent what we mean.

 No.9383

>>9382
>Unfortunately there are crazy people who view women like they were a separate species and these people really do expect that generalizations about women are actually universal. It's probably best if we don't give people the mistaken impression that we think that way.


Actually, those same crazy people also rarely apply generalizations to all people they meet. it is extremely rare to find someone who will really apply a generalization to absolutely everyone. and even if that generalization happens to be true we sometimes can just deal with that somehow. Like if you have a daughter or wife who is absolutely stupid, you will still love them.
So I do not believe the problem is in such misunderstanding especially in the topic which is demanding generalizations as "gender breakdown"

Those kinds of statements usually mean wahst people expect from the group they refer to. as if I said that "women are stupid" it means that if I take a random woman I assume that she is stupid proven to be wrong. this is just plain statistic.

>>That's a special case. When we insult humanity, we're all in the same boat. So long as we're all stupid, we can all laugh about it. Plus it's usually pretty obvious that anyone saying that isn't serious. If we try calling a person stupid instead of calling humanity stupid, it rarely goes as pleasantly.


oh no, we are not on the same boat. When we use that term we always exclude ourselves we use it to belittle the rest of humanity and show how smart we are ourselves.
we enjoy it precisely because this kind of claim puts us on top of everyone.
If someone says something about your group you can do exactly same you bash your own group telling how horrible they are which immediately excludes you from that group and makes you special.
This kind of conversation can be summarized to "yeah how fortunate (or unfortunate) is for geniuses like us to live will all those imbeciles around so let's go have a coffee and discuss how great we are"

If you refuse to take such an opportunity to lift yourself up against the rest of your group there must be some kind of group solidarity where you actually care about that group as a whole and defend it at the cost of self-interest.

If a woman gets offended instead of joining the discussion and bashing other women along with those women haters telling stories on how horrible are other women she knows, it is because she is defending her group for some reason at her own expense. Biologically there may be some kind of innate desire for women to be part of some group while men usually are way more individualistic. At least all women I met so far had no desire to dominate or get on top of everyone. They do not feel much of pleasure just by knowing that "I am on the top" they are ways more interested in "how useful this is to me"

 No.9384

>>9383
Somebody who is comfortable in their own self worth doesn't need to belittle others in order to demonstrate that.

Trying to tear down your associates in order to increase your status, rather than sharing your authentic opinions, is pathetic. And if your authentic opinion towards other people in your group – assuming a group that you chose to be part of, not sex or the like – is negative – it's pitiful to choose to associate with people "below you." It's the activity of somebody who feels threatened seeking out and creating bonds with people who they find worthy of respect.

 No.9385

>>9383
> At least all women I met so far had no desire to dominate or get on top of everyone. They do not feel much of pleasure just by knowing that "I am on the top" they are ways more interested in "how useful this is to me"

I would agree with this, actually. Not that women don't want to dominate specific others, but that women don't want to be the top. But if you want to be "on top"… there is room for very few people in the world who are "on top." You and I aren't among them. But there are a lot of men who try to fake being "on top." Who act like they have no fear, or can never be hurt. If they can convince one person they are in absolute control, they believe that is true.

Those men are either resolutely delusional, or vulnerable as soon as you figure out what part of their lives they're insecure about their lack of control over. The latter is kind of hot, but also frustrating.

This 'invulnerable image', it's why you find basically no women who are pure dominants… being 100% dominant requires that level of delusion towards your own self-worth, which it's rare for women who aren't super chuunibyou (no self-awareness) to achieve… at the end of the day, we all have vulnerabilities, it's more interesting not to pretend!

 No.9387

>>9384
you got something wrong here because
the act of belittling some group together with someone else automatically creates a new group who are associated with that issue. So you do not get lonely, you get friends that way.
those people we are belittling are not our associates they are either totally irrelevant or just happens to share same label or they are actually my competitors. the only thing what associates me with other men is that we share same label, nothing more. if you say something bad about other men i totally don't care just don't talk bad about my friends please.

and also how do you define self-worth anyway? For me, self-worth is about being better than other people what else there can be in principle? you can be sure about that by yourself like being a homeless person who thinks to be better than the wealthiest banker or you can be insecure narcissist who needs to prove it all the time regardless the fact that you are CEO of the multinational corporation.

So those homeless people can meed at that trash can and laugh at those stupid CEOs who work 20 hours a day when they just find all the food in this trash can for free and do not move a finger to earn money living on welfare thus being way smarter.

>>9385
actually no. there is enough space for a lot of people to be on top, you just need to find your niche, to be on top you just need not be average. You do not need to be on top of the world but just on top of your group if you can't do that with this group chose another where you can do that.

You can be super fat and then you will be on top pf fattest people you can be smart and you will be on top of the intelligence hierarchy, you can be anything there are no objective criteria for judgment, being on top just means being unique like nobody else and being proud of that.

Also, you can have multiple people competing for the top position and changing places in the group. The right type of behavior is to let other people get there for some time and this is also a pretty important issue in relationships. and you actually need to learn that in your childhood playing with other kids that even if you are stronger than other people you must let them win at least 30% of the time or nobody will play with you. nobody wants you to be permanently dominant you get to enjoy top position for some time and then someone else takes over. also once you get there you get bored quickly and lose interest anyway until someone else challenges you.

But the main issue here is your desire itself to be on top.
if you lack that desire in principle, you will not even bother with that game. You will not achieve anything real in life, you will be the boring person I mentioned before only good as a support character. If you have no such desire then what the hell we are going to do in life?


>This 'invulnerable image', it's why you find basically no women who are pure dominants… being 100% dominant requires that level of delusion towards your own self-worth, which it's rare for women who aren't super chuunibyou (no self-awareness) to achieve… at the end of the day, we all have vulnerabilities, it's more interesting not to pretend!


Unfortunately, fully dominant women are way more common than half dominant. People who switch are extremely rare both men and women. because this requires extraordinary intelligence and creativity. It is very easy to be dominant or submissive but try to do both at once. this requires you to predict the behavior of your partner and improvise properly to guide them in the right direction which is acceptable for both.

as for pretending, tell that to transgender people ;) they think pretending is more fun than accepting the reality. and sometimes it is worth to play along until those people understand that they are just pretending.

 No.9389

Apropos belitteling…

Onix,
Iam certain that you reside somewhere
within eastern Europe whether within within
the furthest eastern belt of the EU or
in very close proxmity.

Slapping together the timestamps
of your posts, the time-zones that
most likely apply to your geo-location
in my still hella-intexicatet head…

… leads me to following conclusion:

You actuallly spent your staturday night
batteling on GC,
justiyfyfing your BS-opinions.

XD

My tip for you:
first→ go out make some friends.
second→ grab yorself some nice pussy.
third→ enjjoy life.

Coamplete these steps and then come back.
And then lets see how salty of a motherfucker
you still/really are.

 No.9398

>>9373
> The real harm can only come from the people with power over you, like the moderators with the power to ban and to threaten people with banning. That risks kicking you out of a community that you've come to enjoy, and that's far more real. If the trolls seem bad now, imagine them having moderator powers and then perhaps we can comprehend what real badness is.

Therein lies a problem. Trolls seek power and silence. Eventually, if a troll is successful, so many people leave the site that the troll BECOMES the moderator. Then they do have the power. That's the end goal. They want to silence. They want to destroy. That's their only purpose and their true calling. You can't run a successful community with someone who seeks to silence every member until only trolls are left. I've actually SEEN THIS HAPPEN. The only people who were left on a server were trolls who had completely transformed the entire server. How it happened: There were no rules. Because the admin had assumed that everyone would understand not to be a dick to each other, they had no hard and fast rules by which to enforce any bans.

>>9377

>If a fool is trying to push you into a mold, then there is good reason to expect the fool will make you seem to fit. One can hardly expect to reason with a fool. Anything you say to a fool will most likely be misinterpreted, since we are talking to a fool. If we don't like the mold that the fool is trying to push us into, then it is going to be a very frustrating experience. It doesn't drive people away because they are ashamed of fitting the mold; it drives people away because they are annoyed by the experience of talking to fools.


Hence why I don't speak to people who have made comments talking about all women in this very thread. I don't address anything they say and I simply ignore them. They've already shown themselves to be someone I have decided not to associate with and so I will not. While I've seen them paint women with a broad brush, I've determined from their individual actions that they're not worth my time. If one is arguing that women shouldn't be concerned by what anyone says about women and should only be concerned about what is thought of them individually, that doesn't erase systemic issues. These are the same men who think that women need to prove something to them to be considered worthy of respect. I don't waste my time with crap like that or people like that. They may shout into the void all they like but I don't read anything they say. That's one of the aspects of this type of board that you guys say is the "good" part. That people can behave badly and you can just scroll by. I do! But if I had to do that on every single community board, I'd get very very very tired of it. This is why I like being in places where abuse isn't tolerated.

As an aside: The concept of free speech is false. When you are in a private space like a business or a website–there is no such thing as free speech. Free speech is a distinctly American myth. If you say something that is widely regarded as inappropriate, the community you're in has absolutely no obligation to suffer you. Yes. This sounds scary for people who really want to be in that community–wow what if you end up on the wrong side of that? But why would you? Do you not trust yourself to be kind? That's really all it comes down to: Be kind and everything else falls into place behind it. If you cannot do that, then it's time for a good cup of tea with a therapist to work through why that is.

As for everyone else: Yeah. We can scroll past people behaving badly…but we shouldn't have to. I like knowing that people are complex and multifaceted. I like knowing that these dudes who are into gore porn of women getting ripped apart can actually be really sweet and loving people irl. Trolls on gurochan just confirm to outsiders looking in what they automatically assume about those who consume this type of content: that guro-lovers aren't people–they're trolls. Eventually, with enough trolls in a community, rational people will just leave and then all you'll have to entertain you are trolls. If you want that, that's great. But I don't want that, and you don't want that, and nobody really wants that…except maybe trolls.

 No.9399

>>9398
>As an aside: The concept of free speech is false. When you are in a private space like a business or a website–there is no such thing as free speech. Free speech is a distinctly American myth. If you say something that is widely regarded as inappropriate, the community you're in has absolutely no obligation to suffer you. Yes. This sounds scary for people who really want to be in that community–wow what if you end up on the wrong side of that? But why would you? Do you not trust yourself to be kind? That's really all it comes down to: Be kind and everything else falls into place behind it. If you cannot do that, then it's time for a good cup of tea with a therapist to work through why that is.

You are a bit mistaken about free speech.

it is not some meaningless right to make people feel better, it is a way to avoid unnecessary violence.
sure it is not a problem on the internet because if you got banned on one forum you just join another where you are more welcome and everyone is protected by internet anonymity and huge distances so you can behave any way you like.
But in real life, this ends with a bit more serious results, like rape murder and terrorism. If people are not allowed to express themselves peacefully they do it violently and the community will suffer even more.
Even if most people will not resort to violence themselves they will provide moral support to those who do it or find some other ways to hurt their community.

 No.9400

>>9389
>>My tip for you:
>first→ go out make some friends.
>second→ grab yorself some nice pussy.
>third→ enjjoy life.

I have all that. But friends and pussies are boring, plain waste of time. And there are no fetish clubs of any kind anywhere in the reasonable proximity.
Unfortunate unlike you, I do not drink or smoke and do not do drugs of any kind.

 No.9401

>>9398
>The concept of free speech is false.

OUCH!
I really don't like that sentence.
I strongly believe, that free speech is
the major problem-solving mechanism
democracy has provided us to address the
problems that bother us the most:
The difficult ones.

Whenever there is a delicate problem with
society, that needs to be solved,
free speech is the first step we can take,
to at least raise awareness, even if
the establishment doesn't want us to.

That being said…:
I get your point.

Trolls aren't a the establishment but an
ever occurring self-feeding problem.

I might add that trolls don't only
[a] waste others time
[b] shy away valuable community members
but also:
[c] seem to be able to 'discourse' the
focus of an entire discussion.

EG.:
This thread started out with the intention
to provide a gender comparison regarding
guro and was on a REALLY PROMISING way.
Hell, we also got reg chime in to provide
some insights from the administrative side
of the game.

And now we are discussing boring
politics.

That's baaad… and I also fell into this
trap…
——————————————-
Trolls are an ever occuring problem,
eating up resources where they can and
leveraging every right (eg.free speach)
granted to them, only to, agreeing to J.D.,
gain power and silence.

And sacrificing their valuable saturday
night to do so, I might add…
BOOOBOOO, poor no-friend-onix…. XD

Trolls seem to defy any form of social 'Gravity',
giving them seemingly 'supernatural' powers.
You cannot argue them, because they are
resilient to reason.
You cannot ignore them, because they suck up
everything in the long run.
You cannot harm them, because they possess
nothing worth loosing.

The only way to rule them is through violence.
Therefore there must be some form to assert
violence, even if that means giving up some
ethical standards.
So… yes, I am pro-BAN.
————————————————
From a sheer business point of view,
it's a numbers game.
[1]
There might be a number of ppl. that shy
away because there are mechanisms in place,
that assert power/violence over unwanted
members of a community.
[2]
On the other hand, there might be a number of
ppl that are attracted by the protection
mentioned power provides.

female communities seem to fall under the
second [2] category.
From what I've heard so far those communities
seem to thrive and are in general in a good
shape.
For me, that is proof-of-concept enough.

The only weakness I suspect is that those
female-controlled communities seem to be
separated and spread across the web.
(maybe I'm wrong)
If mentioned female communities would unite,
I am sure, they would outrun any male
dominated community just by the numbers
of active users.

 No.9402

>>9400

>I have all that. But friends and pussies are boring, plain waste of time. And there are no fetish clubs of any kind anywhere in the reasonable proximity.

Unfortunate unlike you, I do not drink or smoke and do not do drugs of any kind.

DUDE… no wonder you are that salty…
… your life *MUST* suck, if this is your
honest opinion.

I don't do drugs either… but going out,
having a drink or two… with some friends…
enjoying a nice one-nighter with a beautyful
piece of nasty…
It's a *FUN* waste of time.

REALLY, you should try it.

 No.9404

>>9398
>You can't run a successful community with someone who seeks to silence every member until only trolls are left. I've actually SEEN THIS HAPPEN.

Freedom is not easy. Good things rarely are. The best way to deal with trolls is to find ways to work around them, not to abandon freedom. Struggling to be free may be more challenging, but it is worth the price.

>If I had to do that on every single community board, I'd get very very very tired of it. This is why I like being in places where abuse isn't tolerated.


What is to stop the community board from deciding that you've also become a problem? How can we trust them to decide who is worthy of respect who who is garbage to be thrown away? Just because there are people you consider garbage, that doesn't mean that only those people will become targets of the system you're endorsing. We face the choice between something easy and something good. If the most important thing is for us to not be tired, then perhaps we should take the easy option, but just remember that there is a terrible price to be paid.

>When you are in a private space like a business or a website–there is no such thing as free speech. Free speech is a distinctly American myth.


Free speech is an ideal, not a myth. It's a goal to strive for, something to guide our decisions as we try to make the world a better place.

>If you say something that is widely regarded as inappropriate, the community you're in has absolutely no obligation to suffer you.


That's why free speech is so rare and so precious. How wonderful it is to find an open and accepting community that lives by principles and fosters conversation rather than forcing everyone to fit into a pre-defined mold. The very fact that there is nothing stopping any community from forcing its members into submission is the reason why most of our world doesn't have freedom, and yet the best places to live are those places that are still free.

>wow what if you end up on the wrong side of that? But why would you? Do you not trust yourself to be kind?


Do you really trust the community to care whether you are kind or not? Giving up freedom means that it no longer matters whether you trust yourself, because you no longer determine the outcome. The important question now becomes whether we trust the people who have taken responsibility for sorting the worthy from the unworthy, since these are the people with all the power.

>That's really all it comes down to: Be kind and everything else falls into place behind it.


How is it possible to see trolls as heartless monsters and yet at the same time have this total trust in humanity? Moderators are human just like everyone else; they are not machines with kindness-detection circuits. They have their own selfish motivations and fallible nature, and giving anyone power on the internet is like begging them to abuse that power.

>>9401
>The only weakness I suspect is that those female-controlled communities seem to be separated and spread across the web.

That is the natural result of kicking out anyone you don't like. It forms these tight-knit insular little communities that are sometimes called cliques where everyone is forced to conform under threat of being kicked out. The upside is that we get a perfect community where no one has the option of being anything but exactly what they are supposed to be, and so no one ever has to deal with trolls. The downside is that it is a miserable existence.

>If mentioned female communities would unite, I am sure, they would outrun any male dominated community just by the numbers of active users.


Unfortunately cliques can hardly ever unite, since their fundamental operating procedure is about excluding people. To merge any two cliques would be to take away the power of the people who had been previously controlling their little groups, and people usually loathe to give up power.

 No.9405

>>9404

>That is the natural result of kicking out anyone you don't like.[.ff.]


It isn't.
Telling by the reaction of mio, the female
community is not aware of it's entirety.
Many platforms are simply not known to all of
the potential participants.
That creates diversion.

Lesbinon states, that if there was a place
that would allow the content the female
community desires, which was large enough,
eg. Pinterest, tumblr or something similar,
this would be the major gathering-hub.

So it's not a problem of ppl kicking each
other out, its the lack of appropriate
infrastructure which leads to the fact that
those communities have to 'make up for a lot',
leading to similar ideas creating similar
infrastructures spread across the web to
compensate for what's missing.

>[..]since their fundamental operating procedure is about excluding people[..]


No.
The *standard* operation procedure is to
exclude a very specific, narrow subset of
ppl which disturb the *fundamental* operation
procedure of socialization among like-minded
fellows.
You're a dick == you're not like-minded.
———————————————–
The whole point of having a common platform,
is to socialize.
Let it be through conversation or through
image sharing.

Especially for us who believe
that they're weird/alone because of their
erotic interests, which are undoubtably
'special' and expelled from public society,
It is important to have a place where we can
experience that being the way we are does
not mean that we are some fucked-up
weirdos.
Seeing decent ppl populating these platforms
reminds us that we are 'regular' in every
aspect except this only one.
This is a good thing.
A 'hobby'.
( really love that statement ;) )

'Guro' doesn't include fucked-up-ness.
Trolls are fucked up ppl.

Those fucked up ppl take away the very value,
platforms like this provide.
Quality Socialization and communication.

———————————————–
BBraker,
I think you're seeking for extremes here,
leaving the realm of reason.

You seem to overly dramatize the
'getting molded theme' and the misuse of
power.

You seem to overly romanticize the strive
for the greater good.

You seem to overly idealize individualism
and freedom.

In a perfect world, we could talk again.
Until then, we have to deal with what we
have.

And we certainly have a lot of Bullshit.
———————————————–
I will end my participation on this thread
right here.
We got clearly that far off topic, which was
supposed to be a gender-breakdown/exchange,
that I doubt that recovery would be possible.

I am grateful for many of the contributions,
because I believe to have learned to understand
the female side a lot better.

I am sad, that I couldn't provide more
value myself.

At the very least, I would like to leave
following question, whose answer is not only
obvious, but also proves some of the points
I have made.

→ What brought us that far off topic?





-cheers

 No.9406

>>9405
> If there was a place that would allow the content the female community desires, which was large enough, eg. Pinterest, tumblr or something similar, this would be the major gathering-hub.

Those might be major gathering hubs, but they kicked us out for not being like-minded. The question we're faced with is whether we want to emulate them, or might we be better. Unfortunately it is probably human nature to expel people who are different, but it's lovely to fantasize that there could be better places, at least on the internet.

>So it's not a problem of ppl kicking each other out, its the lack of appropriate infrastructure


We only lack the appropriate infrastructure because the people with that infrastructure kicked us out. If we'd just stop kicking each other out we might be able to get together and arrange for more infrastructure, but we keep cutting ourselves off in the name being like-minded. Sometimes it's better to embrace people who aren't exactly like-minded and to explore the world from other perspectives.

>The whole point of having a common platform, is to socialize.


The choice we have to make is whether we're going to socialize with a insular little community, or whether we're willing to expose ourselves to humanity in general.

>Especially for us who believe that they're weird/alone because of their erotic interests, which are undoubtably 'special' and expelled from public society, it is important to have a place where we can experience that being the way we are does not mean that we are some fucked-up weirdos.


Even though we may say that, we're willing to label people as fucked-up weirdos and kick them out, just as we have been labelled as fucked-up weirdos in the past. Given that, we should ask ourselves if we're really looking for a place to belong, or are we more interested in venting our frustrations by treating other people the way we've been treated?

If this seems extreme, it is only because expelling people from a community is an extreme act that should not be taken lightly. Unfortunately it is so easy to label people as fucked-up weirdos and then totally cease to care about them.

>Trolls are fucked up ppl. Those fucked up ppl take away the very value, platforms like this provide.


It can be really hard to see people talking this way, because it's so easy to see where it leads.

>What brought us that far off topic?


Are we really that far off topic? Perhaps, but some people seem to think that this is part of the divide between male-dominated and female-dominated guro communities. I'm no sociologist; I have no idea if it's true or not, but either way this topic grew organically out of the topic of this thread. Perhaps there really is no connection between this and gender, but the only hope we have for determining that is by talking about it.

 No.9407

>>9406
It's funny how long and far this thread has ranged, given that my initial motivation in posting it was to try to connect with people who liked BL games. :-)

I think at the core, everyone can dream of a community where everyone is accepted. But note that this derail started with people saying they felt unwelcome in various spaces. Not that they were kicked out – gurochan, AO3, or pre-purge tumblr weren't kicking anyone out – but that they didn't feel comfortable and didn't get along with the other users. The fundamental divide is that the content that some people feel is "welcoming" is "unwelcoming" to others, and being "welcome" to share opinions others find disrespectful is incompatible with being "welcome" in a space where you are not disrespected.

I think it is impossible to create a space where everybody who enjoys guro feels like they can interact in the way they want. More spaces is better. Of course, there is a boundary to creating those spaces, because so many platforms are off-limits to us. But, the fact that these admins are able to resurrect gurochan, and that AO3 is able to exist and accept any content, gives hope that this community can overcome its issues with TOSes.

 No.9408

>>9405
>I will end my participation on this thread
right here.

I wonder if you have anything better to do? than wasting your useless time here. probably the only other activity is to get drunk with some friends and hookers. LOL


>>9404
>>That is the natural result of kicking out anyone you don't like. It forms these tight-knit insular little communities that are sometimes called cliques where everyone is forced to conform under threat of being kicked out. The upside is that we get a perfect community where no one has the option of being anything but exactly what they are supposed to be, and so no one ever has to deal with trolls. The downside is that it is a miserable existence.


Actually, this can be done without any bans or oppression but the bigger problem than the loss of freedom is lack of meaning, a community where everyone is nice and has the same opinion has no point to exist. if everyone thinks the same, there is nothing to discuss nothing to do and it will just rot to death.
Community is all about fighting, where everyone is trying to pull it into their own direction and make other people do wahst they want.
if you do not allow to do that there is just no point to participate at all. you probably will end with one admin as the ultimate king and owner and everyone else just as guests in his/her home.

 No.9409

>>9408

So, what are your meaningful activities then…?

LOL

 No.9410

>>9409
None at all, life is pointless like game where you just do stuff to feel good.
and if you sped time here arguing about internet freedom instead of banging hookers, this means you enjoys this argument more than those one night stands.

or else you woud not waste your time here you woud be doing what gives you more pleasure

 No.9411

you got a serious problem pal. comforting to know u r just a piece of shit without real influence on other humans just because nobody cares about you.Brothers, sisters: Just don't listen what he sais.Nothin left to say

 No.9412

>>9411
LOL
Why you have to turn every discussion into discussing me instead of the topic?
I absolutely don't mind but I don't think other people are very interesting in me describing my personal problems.

 No.9413

>>9412

I heavily suspect,
that you suspect
that you're talking to me.

I have to admit, It's quite a fluttering
thought.

;)

But if one thing that I have learned,
through engaging with you, my dear onix,
it's that there is NO POINT in talking
to trolls.

Posting this, just to get things straight.
It's about reputation.


I've got to go back to booze and hookers ;)

enjoy life, onix.



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