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 No.7514[View All]

Creating this thread mostly so that people have a space to discuss this in that doesn't disrupt the other boards threads.

Share your thoughts and opinions on piracy of patreon and other paid works here.
102 posts omitted. [View All]

 No.9090

I'm sick and tired of people whining about stealing in every thread on /g/.

Regardless of shoulds and should nots, if you put content on the internet someones gonna literally just copy the image file and post it here. Getting upset about it does nothing. No amount of righteousness will change it. Thats the reality we deal with and filling up every single thread with dumbshit complaints about how "people feel entitled to paid works! You're thieves!" is completely retarded and you're not only wasting your time because it changes nothing, you're also inconveniencing everyone who doesnt give a fuck about any of this and just wants to share/view content.

If you literally rely on this for income, that's too bad. Maybe don't. If it means we lose art because you can't do that, that's too bad. Nothing will change that circumstance unless you figure out how to put better DRM on your content. Quit complaining

 No.9098

>>9090

Of course nothing will change. Or will it?
Artists may just stop working on Art to serve the masses, let it be paywalled or for free but instead they might turn to the people who actually can afford art for extremely high prices, people that actually care less about money than the average joe who is arguing about 10 bucks a month.

I am an artist myself and the best lesson I have learned was:
STAY AWAY FROM THE MASSES, SERVE THE ELITE.

I believe that many artists, which are talented enough will soon learn that lesson too.

The only thing that the people who call themselves 'fans' will be left with is the
bullshit the paying customer will leave them.

just my guess

 No.9099

>>9098
This is the most idiotic idea ever.


Yeah, artists will stop serving masses and try to sell their scat pictures to Bill Gates at queen of England 1000$ each. LOL

But I woud not worry too much because getting art at the very high price is also known as commissioning so all that art will get into public almost immediately as well because buyer will share it himself. If you cant sell it there is no point in hiding it. Art is only useful for few seconds then it loses all meaning.

Also do not confuse art with product. as the thing you produce for sale. Art is when you express and primary goal yourself not then you try to make money in the same way as Holywood studios whose movies have less meaning than webcam porn.

 No.9101

>>9099
There definitely exists a higher-end guro market. Original work can sell for a lot. Some of the images on this site, the originals sold for upwards of $1K and some even $10K USD. The most famous artists, even one panel or sketch is over $100.

Then, lithographs for ~$200, in limited edition of 10-50, posters and books for $10-$100… those are both "accessible" and "high end" by the standards of the average fan.

But… after I said that, it seems strange to hear artists talk about the guro community will be damaged if people don't pay for art. At the beginning, before Patreon, this site was all freely-shared art by enthusiasts, commissions, and pirated (usually Japanese) content. How many people here paid money So if people respect Patreon paywalls and that encourages creation of more art, that's a good thing – but it's actually pretty new that an imageboard, or online porn art fans, cares about piracy or supporting creators at all.

 No.9102

It's somewhat depressing to find out that this community, that gave me hope and taught me there are other people with the same interests, is full of entitled manchildren who think they deserve free art because they're too mind-numbingly stupid to give a shit about the artists.

 No.9104

>>9101
What is the point of that high end guro market?
do you say that there are some advanced artists that can provide you better fapping experience? LOL

In essence this is all just porn with some artistic component.

 No.9106

>>9099

This isn't really just an idea.
It is becoming more and more a reality.
I myself have entirely stopped to post drawings of mine online. Mostly because 'entitled manchildren' think they have any right to dictate if I should work for money or not.

There are many, many ways to circumvent the
'I-want-stuff-for-free'-crowd.
EG:
selling prints of unpublished digital artwork;
essentially changing the medium.

>>9104

It is not that the 'more advanced' artist
provides a better 'fappening' experience.
It is about providing the 'fappening' experience at all.

As soon as the majority of artists realize,
that the crowd/plebb doesn't give a shit
about their struggle to make a living, they
are facing two choices:

A] STOP doing Art (for the public), because it
simply doesn't make any sense/money.

B] SELL Art EXCLUSIVELY to customers at price-rates that
justify the effort put into the process of creation
of mentioned art.

Art, as so many of you pointed out is a product,
that you do not really need. A luxury.

Luxury products are not meant for consumption of those
people who do not can or do not want to afford it. Simple.

I myself only sell my art this way. No exceptions.
And I make a pretty good living doing so.
Then, I some of my art gets leaked, I do not care, because I already
made my money.

I have done art before, was quite popular.
But popularity/likes/comments/followers… 'fans'
do not pay any bills.
CUSTOMERS pay bills.

I encourage every Artist I know to do the same.
The only way to survive in a world where your 'fans' SHIT on you
is to shit back on the 'fans'.
No pay no porn. Simple.

I PREDICT:
In future, there will be even less artists, especially in this very
specific niche who will create/publish online at all.
BECAUSE:
A] Most of those artists which are able and business-minded
will eventually acquire customers and serve
those exclusively. Maybe offline (prints etc) even if the art is
created digital.

B] Other Artists, which are less business-minded will simply stop
publishing/creating art because of frustration and RL-struggles,
which will be by then prioritized.

I ADVICE:
Every Artist, who is frustrated reading communist-minded comments
of degenerate dickheads:
→ Do your homework, think BUSINESS.
→ Commissions are NOT the only way to monetize.
→ changing the medium (eg. prints) changed my income drastically,
and prevented so much piracy.
Maybe you can benefit from that too.
→ fans/ppl who like your art != Customers.
→ 'fans' are nothing more than a medium for attention to reach
out to potential customers.

I know that my opinions are hardlined, but realizing
'how the game works' really changed my life.

GOD BLESS AMERICA!
HAIL CAPITALISM!

 No.9108

>>9106

I think you totally don't get wahst I say:
I am not arguing about what will happen, I am arguing that nobody is going to pay you. So if you don't want to share, who cares but you will not make any decent money either way.


>>"B] SELL Art EXCLUSIVELY to customers at price-rates that

justify the effort put into the process of creation
of mentioned art."

So can you tell us more on how much of your pictures of shitting dick nipples you sold to Bill Gates LOL


>>I encourage every Artist I know to do the same.

The only way to survive in a world where your 'fans' SHIT on you
is to shit back on the 'fans'.
No pay no porn. Simple.

Can you reveal the secret how do you find so stupid customers who are willing to pay you a high price for something that is plentiful for free already. I could use that as well.

Unfortunately for you, porn is pretty much free today unless you are some kind of super genius in producing advanced fapping material LOL


It is interesting that while you talk a lot about your huge success and high paying customers you are not willing to reveal who you are so that we could at least check your work and see if it is worth even a penny.
So there is a reasonable suspicion that you are just talking bullshit.
If it was so easy everyone would be doing that.

 No.9109

People are willing to pay for art because they then get a certain degree of control in the creative process. So long as you only go after free art, you have to make do with whatever is out there already, or somehow find an artist that is willing to create work to your specification for free (which are very few and far between, usually have long wait times, and often are not amazing). Granted, there is plenty of free art out there, but the more specific you go, the less and less there is. Guro is already quite a specific niche, and there are many subcategories within it. People usually have a certain act they like to see depicted, and it can be difficult to find art that perfectly portrays that in a style you like. That's why you then commission an artist; so that you can work with them to create something that exactly fits your taste. For many, that's worth the money.

 No.9110

>>9108

You do not get my point.
Maybe you are too narrow minded that you only
think in extremes: 'huge success', 'Bill Gates' etc.

But I am a kind person.
So I will explain a little further:

>> So can you tell us more on how much of your pictures of shitting dick nipples you sold to Bill Gates LOL


I don't know If I sold any of my art to Bill Gates.
But of course you should know that not only Bill Gates
Is able to afford my works.

Clearly you want to exaggerate my statements into
ridiculous contexts.

Maybe for YOU and YOUR income,
EVERYONE with a yearly salary above 150K/$ seems like
a Bill Gates to YOU.


>> Can you reveal the secret how do you find so stupid customers who are willing to pay you a high price for something that is plentiful for free alreadyk


It's a fact, that there are plenty of people out
there that are by far below of what you would consider
super-wealthy (Bill Gates) who desire some form of
exclusive treatment and are willing to pay for it.

You may find this kind of People very ordinary
via Instagram for example. Or better BE FOUND BY THEM the same
way.
Do some Artwork, take a picture which is not too
much revealing (community guidelines) BUT same time
use the right tags which clearly indicate your
intentions.
Just one of many possibilities.
Its all about marketing and pushing your stuff in
front of the right eyes.

Keep in mind:
People like described above pay,
not just because of the 'fappening'-material itself,
BUT for the fact that the barrier of being able to
afford it makes it exclusive.

Keep in mind:
People like described above may have an entirely
different perspective on money than the average Joe.
While the avg Joe only CAN spend his money on things
he NEEDS, These People DO NOT CARE about spending
their money on things they WANT.

About Revealing WHO I am and my 'huuuge' success:
You want to exaggerate my statements about my
success to make me seem like a scam. Nice try.
But to be clear:
Making a very good living out of something you love
doing while you know how it is to starve for doing it
IS in my own opinion huge enough of a success.
I do not give you any numbers, but be assured,
I am not below avg. any more.

Who exactly I am is none of your business.
Revealing my Identity on a board like this to some
idiot asking for it would be extraordinarily stupid.
If YOU think that I am talking BS, then… well…
I don't give a fuck.

cheers.

 No.9111

>>9110
you logic is pretty irrational if you try to advertise yourself on Instagram but here you are trying to hide yourself while pointlessly complaining about piracy. Other paywall artists are desperately trying to spam every corner of internet only balancing on the edge where their contributions will be considered spam.


either way your claims do not look realistic, because if if was possible to make decent money that way everyone woud be doing that. You are not only capitalist on earth. many artists are trying to sell their work and make money in any way they can but this is not that simple as you claim.


Also It is not me who made a claim to sell pictures to elites. people who make 150k annually are not elites. my sister's husband spends 5k a month on apartment rent each month.
elites are people who have some kind of political power, whose opinion matters in the global scale.

the chance of being found by your customer between thousands of other artists is close to zero. Especially if you are not even willing to show your work or even tell any numbers.
Instagram has billions of pictures already and chances that someone will notice yours and it will develop into something more than clicking on next is close to zero as well.

 No.9112

>>9111

My logic is not irrational.
Reading through the comments on this board,
especially this thread, trust me,
HERE is the last place to advertise my work.
Or should I advertise my work to a bunch
of communist-pirates ;).

Do not feel entitled to get any numbers,
hints or even proof from me.
I owe you nothing.
And I don't care about you.

The only reason I engage in this conversation,
replying to someone like you is because I am
aware, that somebody else, whose mindset is
different from yours might read it and might
eventually realize that there are options for
artists to be fine even if people like you
exist.

That being said,
I admit that my slogan:
'STAY AWAY FROM THE MASSES, SERVE THE ELITE'
is provocative and exaggerated, but it gets the
message across.

I admit, that marketing yourself as an artist
on the web, targeting the RIGHT audience,
is a demanding task and is not to be
underestimated.
Instagram was just ONE example I provided.

Remember as I stated that the masses are
just a medium for getting attention of the
right eyes?
THAT'S WHATS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW:
I state something provocative,
and YOU (some pleb) respond to that,
spawning a dialog, open for everyone to enjoy.
Giving me the attention I want, pushing my
words into the right minds, while I can enjoy
mocking at you. Thanks, babe.

IN CONTRAST TO YOU,
I have a message to tell which is NOT just
egoistic, self centered and mindless.
Because of empathy I have a real interest in
telling other artists, who suffer from the
mindset of the people of your kind,
that there are ways to make it for themselves,
DESPITE the pathetic existence of yours.
Achievable.

Just look at yourself:
>> my sister's husband spends 5k a month on apartment rent each month.

WHAT IS ABOUT YOU?? HUH??
Do you need to tell stories of OTHER PEOPLE
who are doing well, because you are …
… nothing??

Know your place, B***TCH ;)

kiss.

 No.9114

Hmm. Ill jump in with something little here without knowing the full context.

I had an animal artist in one of the guro discord servers who did fair quality paintings that probably took 3 and a half to 5 hours for around 800 dollars.

The idea of an elitist and quiet artist selling high quality fetish work for $2000 a pop isnt out of the question. While its unlikely an aristocratic artist is currently laying wisdom at our feet out of the kindness of his heart (with a little bit of self indulgent condesension if were being honest.) Its not entirely impossible. And if some high roller shucking guro works worth a grand were to lurk on any website, itd be here.

Hm. Hell, id like to bite, if I can. My discord is reg#6449
Id like to talk to you as a training artist to an established one if youd do me the kindness. I talk with alot of the artists that post here and some that dont, such as Guro Snail and Ayaswan, and Id love to have another perspective on our strange, small industry.

-Reg

 No.9115

>>9112
so you "exaggerate" stuff and complain that I am mocking your exaggeration LOL

Of course, you are not obligated to prove anything, but making claims and refusing to provide any proof is pretty stupid behavior, because why anyone should believe you?

You are not mocking me at all, this way, you are just putting your own stupidity on display LOL
You spend time on gurochan only to complain about piracy which does not even affect you. How much more stupid it can be?

If you manage to find some rich idiots who are willing to pay for stuff that is plentiful just because he desires to be the exclusive owner of the content nobody even knows to exist, good for you congratulations for finding a way to make money. but I highly suspect that a number of people willing to pay is lower than number of artists willing to be paid. So you should not brag about your method too much or you may face competition ;)

either way it is not a big loss if we can't see your works. since you do not give any info on what you do there is no reason to assume that I will be interested in that even if I get it for free.


My income is not that important here. lest say just one thing that my savings are growing up so I have no reason to earn more than I earn now and I can spend my life in the better way than being a wage slave. I would love to get some more money from my art so that I could work even less than now.

What I was trying to say with that example is just that 150k wage does not make you elite this is a pretty typical income of engineer in US. usually, it makes you wage slave who has no free time at all.

 No.9116

>>9114
While this is possible as some kind of oddity it is not very likely and pretty rare.

The issue I was discussing here was that it cannot become a mainstream thing as my opponent is trying to suggest. Most artists would be super happy to be paid 2000$ for one picture.

 No.9118

>>9114

enjoyed your participation.
noted your discord.

>>9115
I am not bragging at all.
You clearly have not the slightest clue
about my own intentions.

But let me enlighten you.
I started selling my own art to well
paying customers a few (not that many)
years ago.

TODAY I most likely spend about 10% of
my time creating art.
About 90% of my time are spend selling
other artists works the same way I did
with my own.
In consent!

Overcoming the problems of:
→ finding ways to minimize piracy
→ creating products that yield
actual 'hardware-value'
→ coming up with ideas to market
to paying customers
→ making contacts to people who own
infrastructure/tools to actually
produce the products
… and many more!
THIS attracts attention of customers
AND artists as well.
Because it is difficult as HELL.

Because of these difficulties,
I am pretty confident that I won't run
into heavy competition that early.
And because of the fact that the demand
is quite large and most likely too much
for me and my little business to cover.

But the more interesting part:
I do not think I am that stupid as you
describe me.
See me:
People like you are the reason, why
artists are miserable, frustrated and
cannot make a living from what they
love doing.

People like me have solved most of the
above mentioned problems.

Can you imagine that artists have an
interest in NOT being miserable and
actually being able to make a living
off their hard work?

Can you imagine that people like me
might attract other artist, because
I solved the same problems they face?

Guess how many ;)

Today I can make a living just by the
cut I take, marketing other artists
works.
As far as I can tell, Many of them are
not unhappy with what I do.
As far as I can tell, Many of them
feel that they are well compensated for
their hours spend.

YOU are totally right:
I might be an idiot wasting my time on
you here on gurochan.

BUT SEE ME:
I am making a living off a problem that
individuals like you created.
In an abstract way, YOU are driving my
business.

Thank you!

The discussion we have will be here
for a looong time for everyone to see,
what a stupid idiot I am. You too did spend some time here, countering me…

Thank you!

By arguing me,
YOU are the reason I get attention by
many right eyes, reading my stupid lines.

Thank you!

You are
My reason, for what I do.
My solution, for the problems I faced.
My medium, for getting Attention.

THANK YOU!

I think I'll end my participation in
this discussion right here.
I've got what I looked for.
Thanks to you.

Well, there's only one last thing
left to say:

Know your place, B***TCH ;)

*POOF*

 No.9119

hehehe! somebody got owned

 No.9121

>>9119
Yeah it was a little rough and tumble but I've gotta give him points for spectacle.

 No.9122

>>9118
LOL I can say thanks for you too I was laughing for 5 minutes.
So it seems you are not an artist but publisher. But if you spend 90% of the time selling works of other people if that really your dream life?
If I had to do that I rather spend that time working as an engineer or programmer (since that is kinda my specialty where I get my main income) and make much more money. But I rather spend 90% of my time making pictures and 10% of my time working for money.

Rationally you should not express your gratitude with complains about piracy which is driving your business. You should desire more of that LOL
Maybe you will share some of your great profits with us too if people like me are driving your business?

However you are totally wrong about the reason why artists are miserable and can't make much of money, this is because nowadays pretty much anyone can be an artist with almost no skills or education required. Competition is plain insane here.
I myself got into that simply because I could not find enough of the content I wanted so I decided to make it myself.

Oh, I did not notice that you decided to end discussion already, but since I already wrote that take it anyway.

 No.9124

File: 1556679149925.png (13.02 KB, 604x223, u.png)

>>9104
Well, I find *beautiful* ero-guro art way sexier. If I wanted amateur gore porn I'd draw it myself.

Obviously if you don't care about the artistic quality or about having physical art, you wouldn't be the one to buy that stuff, but enough others are… on that, it's a matter of individual taste more than income.

re: BIFFBITCH – see image

 No.9127

Well, I should have been a bit more
specific what I meant by ending my
participation in this discussion.

I think I felt into the trap of responding
to some degenerate idiot exclusively.
[I won't respond to onix in the future]

This is in my honest opinion not the
most productive way of spending my time.
But the times where I passionately drew
and got ripped off left some 'bitterness'
deep inside my rotten little soul.
This bitterness is easily brought to the
surface by reading threads like this.

At least I got some of my points across
and even if it was done in a rough way,
I collected some points for spectacle ;)
[Thanks @ Reg]

The Message that I really should bring
to the artists, reading this discussion
is:

A]
'Fans'/'Followers'/'likes' do not yield
any immediate value that solves RL issues.
Money does.
Social Media and associated companies try
to sell the idea of the 'value' of
'social currency' and many people believe
in that idea.
Unless you are able to transform Followers
and fans
into paying customers, the only thing you
get out of them is attention/exposure
to eventually get displayed to potential
customers.
Followers and Fans are CHEAP and they should
be treated accordingly.
EG:
If you put your work out there for free,
exposing it to the public, make sure,
that your name/contact is resistent.
BIIIG WATERMARKS, containing your contact,
'censoring' 'interesting' parts of your
Image etc, even if the 'fans' will hate you
for doing so.
BECAUSE:
Your 'Fans' will rip off your piece,
modify it and post it all across the web.

REALTALK:
Two days ago I stumbled across an Image,
Which seemingly was a commission posted by
the commissioner (not by the artist).
There must have been the artists' signature
in the bottom right corner, but the
person who posted this went through the
troubles of pulling the file into PS and
putting a black bar over the artists' sig.

DIS-FUCKING-GUSTING!

Clearly I was interested in contacting that
specific artist, because I knew:
'Hellya… I can sell that kind of stuff!'


People want numbers:
Given the ratio of the Image, The fact that
I found one further (also black-bar-censored)
drawing by seemingly the same artist, I
could estimate that I would spend approx
1.500USD per Image and that I would like
to have about six of them for the beginning.
BUT… NOPE, because of some 'FAN-BITCH'
went through the troubles disguising the
only hint on the artist.

BOTTOMLINE:
As an Artist, make sure this will not happen
to you. If your 'fans' do not like that
you efficiently tag your images, SHIT on their
opinion, because your fans will shit on you
as soon there is the opportunity to do so.

Only put works of yours public, If it serves
your OWN purpose of exposure/self-promotion.
Do not fall into the trap of believing that
you as an artist should 'serve' your 'fans'.
Your 'fans' won't serve you either.
FUCK THE FANS.

B]
Paywalling, especially patreon-style does
not cut it.
It is too cheap.
It is not savage enough.
Patreon has proven to do a VERY BAD JOB
in protecting the artist from piracy due
to flaws in the subscription system and
due to the lack of understanding of what kind
of customer is valuable to the artist.
Catering arts to the masses has never proven
to be a good concept unless you have that
strong of an influence that you can
viciously enforce copyright laws and hunt
down people who break copyright laws.

Money is not the problem, but the solution.
Money can act as a gatekeeper.
I have seen paywalls that were massive/costly
enough to effectively keep out every
average joe.
(I will discuss the difference between the
avg. joe and the above-average ppl. next point.)


C]
The avg. Joe VS wealthy James:
The average Joe's biggest concern is MONEY.
The wealthy James' biggest concern is TIME.

The average Joe has, especially on the web,
proven that he can come up with very
sophisticated methods/ideas to overcome
his lack of commercial power and to screw
other people over.
Just google about yiff[dot]party.
Imagine some poor ugly fat motherfucker
sitting in his basement, investing all the
time, all the effort just to put up a
website that specializes on ripping off
paywalled patreon content, ending up in
begging for donations to keep the site alive,
because that cheap-ass son of a B*** can't
afford to pay 160Bucks out of his own
pocket.
Wealthy James would most likely not do
something like that.
-Because it sucks.
-Because it costs time.

BOTTOMLINE:
The ingenuity, the time and effort the
average Joe is willing to invest in the act
of getting stuff for free/cheap
is remarkable.
Would average Joe invest the same ingenuity,
time and effort in his life/career,
he WOULD BE wealthy James.
WOULD HE BE wealthy James, he would not
bother about shortcutting/screwing other
ppl because it would cost too much time.

For an artist, whose intention it is to
profit from his/her skillset it is simply
not a viable option to cater the avg. Joe/
the masses, because the masses will always
come up with new ways to fuck the artist
over because of their lack of money and the
abundance of time on their hands.

A crowd of thousands of 'fans' is not able
to feed their artists,
while a handful of customers can.

D]
Artists, do your homework.
Overthink your business strategies, risk a look at
upcoming technologies.
I know that wrapping your head around the whole topic
of business/marketing sucks… especially if it costs
time you could spend creating the ideas that are in your
head which you are afraid of loosing.
But the time you put into ramping up your game is time
well spend.

Advancements especially in blockchain technology may
sooner or later, but surely in the nearer future
could provide a solution to the problem of ownership
of artworks.
I've seen (very early staged) prototypes of blockchain
networks accessible with special desktop/mobile clients
which disable most of functionalities of the user taking
screenshots, copying an image in other ways etc.
Essentially, if you do not own the image according to
some smart contract defined in the bl-chain network,
you cannot see the image.
Impressive.
I like the idea.

—————————————————
OF COURSE…
… there are artists out there, that do not want to
monetize their work and like the idea of not working
for money.
This is a totally valid and very acceptable point of
view.
But it has to be the artist's decision what he/she does
with his/her works.
Taking this ability of self-determination away simply
because some undereducated manchild believes to be
entitled to something he doesn't own is wrong and
will have consequences.
—————————————————
OF COURSE…
… I not posting this because I am purely altruistic.
I have my own personal reasons for doing what I do.
One of them is, that I am a very savage person and I
really like the taste of the tears that all the entitled
manchild motherfuckers will cry as soon as the game
changes to their disadvantage, RIPPING AWAY the 'RIGHT'
for having nice things for free, they aren't worthy
possessing.

I really love to see especially those communist minded
unworthy useless people burn in the flames they ignited
totally by themselves, smelling across
the ocean that these bitches are already 'well done'.
DINNER IS SERVED.

MUHAHA… I am most likely a very unlikeable person.
But I am good at it.

Also, I am, as I already hinted always bouncing the
web, searching for artists, willing to cooperate.
—————————————————-



Enjoy your Meal.

 No.9128

>>9127
Thank you for the good time It would be fun to talk more, but everything good has come to the end eventually.

>>9124
Modem technology allows you to mass produce pretty good quality pictures even if you are a total amateur.
The only question is how much effort you are willing to put into that.


But the main problem with that effort is that an artist you will spend 6-10 hours on the mediocre picture(and even more for good quality one) which will be viewed for 10 seconds and discarded.
So how much it is reasonable to pay for the 10-second experience?

So what really matters here is rate limiting system for your experience, some people spend time making money and then buy content some will rather just wait until it leaks or just spend some time browsing the internet and that process becomes your main experience.

This angry BB buy is a bit wrong about Average Joe motivation, it is not money. it becomes a principle where you just refuse to pay simply because getting it for free is what gives you a sense of achievement. It is same as those P2P games some people will spend thousands each month to buy top gear, on the first day it is released, and other people will refuse to pay 1$ but grind for 10 days instead to get the same thing.


If it was all about money we could just organize some sharing hub where we collect money to buy some work then share it between those who paid.

 No.9129

I find some of the aspects bb mentioned a little bit more scary than the whole debate cycling this piracy thing. I work in pentesting and it is quite often, since the entire spectrum of security issues around IOT devices arose that I have come in touch with many extremely wealthy private(!) customers demanding my services. I am not 100% sure if BB is legit bit I can certainly Imagine that something like this dude describes is really happening.I have witnessed richkids that spend amounts of money on stupid stuff evvery sane person would loose his sleep over for moths. The entire debate, if something, that is on the web should be for free or not seems to me like some form of proxy war between the rich and the rest of us. At the current time, artists are somewhat caught inbetween these two fractions. I'm in to support *talented* artists and i am far from being a communist but to hell with this elitosphere. To my mind the elites with very few exceptions are mostly responsible for the tremendous financial disparity between them and us, just by creating or lobbying for a system that deliberately exploits the working man pouring more and more money into the pockets of the rich. No wonder, that we, the working class cannot afford to share some of our sour earned money with creators we like. This is where i see the major problem, not the artist wanting to make money itself, but moreso in the elitism that is building up and is slowly affecting the web. THink about it: Outside the web, the elite has long come for our money treating us like domestic livestock to milk as they please. What if the elite comes into the web. Let that sink in for a moment.

 No.9130

This conversation is somewhat unfocused. When Is started this thread a year ago, I was so interested in containing the conversation I didn't think of how it should be had.

So, I asked myself "what are we asking?"

1) Is it unethical and/or bad business to paywall your own content?
2) Is it unethical and/or bad for the guro industry to steal and share pay walled content?
3) Because data online is infinitely and immediately reproduceable, paywalled content almost inevitably leaks. Because it's almost a law of nature, is there a point to retaliation? In otherwords, should be people stop complaining or do they have a right to complain and, potentially, a right to retaliation through lobbying for copyright rules on websites or some such.

===

I do want to say. Try to remember that artists are not your enemies. They work just as hard as you do or harder to produce their works, some spending greater than 12 hours a day on training and drawing.

And: artists are not rich. Ayaswan doesn't make ends meet off of guro. Most artists also have to work a 9 to 5 on top of their hours of daily drawing.

The artists who become well paid through a mix of luck, community outreach, and skill are often placed under the harshest and strictest of expectations. They already react to the facts that we're discussing with new business models because their careers are at the whim of the market we're discussing.

 No.9131

>>9130
Those are pointless questions
because you are talking purely about business issues unrelated to the art itself. Sure artists need money to live but this is no diffrent from everyone else, and if we do not discuss Walmart cashiers or baristas there no reason to discuss artists on the aspect either.

We do not need such art at all, if it is not free it is pointless. The only value of paywaled content is that eventually it will leak, otherwise it is like asteroids flying in the space and they do not concern us until they land on earth.

If some rich "elites" want to waste money on the stuff like that, then great they are like some separate planets which does not concern us and we should not concern them either. We can just treat each other as totally unrelated aliens.
That BB guy actually said many things right. Except that paying customers are super rare and they consume in few orders of magnitude less stuff than pirates.

the point of copyright and patent law is to compensate artists for their work so that this world will eventually end in the public domain. This is our only concern: how to bring more stuff to public domain. So we can discuss what kind of compensation or motivation artists can be given for making more content available to public.

Current system is that people who don't want to wait pay and the rest get same thing for free after some time.

Considering hating artists, we should not forget that if artist is trying to advertise their pay walled content on the forum this is nothing else that plain, unadulterated spam. If someone posts incomplete story of heavily censored pictures with intent to tease and irritate people suggesting to pay to see the rest he totally deserves hate and punishment like any other spammer promoting penis enlargement.

the biggest problems I see with guro is that many sites do not allow guro and loli content so even leaking that stuff becomes problematic since there is nowhere to upload it. You can find site rips of pretty much every mainstream artist but guro and loli content is pretty hard to get

 No.9132

>>9130
the whole discussion if something like paywalling and on the opposite stealing is morally acceptable is plain stupid.
If something is morally acceptable or not, if it is possible, it will happen. Always. Period.
>>9131
Onix, humans like you are just disgusting and unworthy of any human rights.
I dont like the attitudo of BB, but this guy has a point. Beings like you created beings like him.
you deserve each other.
Onix, are you really tryinng to justify stealing? No matter what your intentions are, just go to the next grocery store, try to steal some potatoes and try to convince the police, that the potatoes are too expensive and the market is evil and therefore deserves some form of punishment. You are clearly some form of human trash, nobody needs you either. Try to stop breathing for a couple of minutes. Hopefully youll succeed.

Stealing makes only sense if you steal something that you want. So, sure you do not need the art but obviously you want art.
At the current point in time, the odds are clearly against the artist community.
But let me see how you react if the odds change and actually some form of magic new technology enables the complete protection of other peoples shit. Since my guess is that this tech would be a gamechanger imagine what industries will jump on that train immediately. Music, Arts, Video, Porn in general… literally everyone, who wants to get money from his creativity without being copied.
At this point in time the odds are not just only against you, Onix but against Everyone.
and the fist person to complain, how awfully bad things have become, that by now you are forced to pay for shit that you want will be you. The human trash. Because there wont be any free shit left.

>> 9127

Dude… you should really consult professional help.

 No.9133

Instead of just bashing on Onix.
Let's ask him a simple question:

If, and only if you found an artist online,
whose work you enjoy that much,
that you would really love seeing more of
this,

assuming that you understand, that an artist
needs financial support to create artworks
consistently/more frequently,

assuming that this specific artist
would always put out his work online
freely for everyone,

REGARDLESS of anyone financially supporting
him/her,

Would you actually out of your own motivation,
take the step to VOLUNTARILY DONATE
to this artist?




YES?
NO?

 No.9134

>>9132
I do not need to justify something what does not happen. Piracy is not stealing.

definition of stealing is taking something from another person so that he looses that item.

If I take photo of your car I did not steal it.


Copyright has nothing to do with stealing it is a mechanism on how to provide artists with some income so that they get some incentive to work and enrich us with free content.
Patent laws were actually created with intent to prevent situation described by BB. so that if you fully describe your invention and agree to transfer it into public domain 20 years later you get monopoly on it for that time. but if you decide to hide it and keep it to yourself anyone is allowed to take it and use for free
BB behavior was pretty common in the middle ages where everything was kept as closely guarded trade secret to prevent that from leaking in to public.


Fortunately for me, technology is moving in the direction where DRM is impossible. Also artists are turning obsolete as profession. AI is already doing pretty good job here.

Furthermore even if we hypothetically assume that situation then there will be no big difference because existence of this technology is not in any way related to piracy. If you are paying for content it does not affect you besides creating you some inconvenience. If you do not pay for content you just don't get access to certain content but since you woud not be paying anyway result is same for the artist.

Such question actually makes no logical sense unless you assume that this kind of technology will reduce amount of leaking works so we are supposed to buy more to prevent it from being developed and still enjoy easy piracy.
but You should understand yourself how ridiculous is that idea because this essentially transforms purchase into donation where you "buy" content not to get access to it but to support artist even if you could just download all that for free.

Anyway, DRM development does not depend on piracy levels. If such magic technology was possible it woud have been in in use already

 No.9135

hahaha!!! I have gone through the pleasure of reading some of your older posts in this thread.
It all makes sense now. and the more I read the posts of yours and yours alike the more i loose faith in humanity. As a disclaimer I am not an artist myself, so it doesnt affect my income. But I support artist I enjoy. The reality is, that people like me, who pay and support art are actually not only supporting the artist but are effectively paying so that you can get your shit for free. A sad fact is that at this point in time the jokes are on us, the people who care and try to hold up social values and people like you just leech on the fruits that this brings. You are obviously convinced, that you are doing nothing wrong, that some AI will somehow draw the art for you and copyright was a way to compensate the artists while publishing his stuff for free.
D U D E:
COPY-RIGHT means, that you are not allowed to copy, share or publish anything unless you own the right to do so. If you purchase art, music etc. you purchase the copy of that. you are not allowed to share, bublish or duplicate that copy you purchased before.
I dont get it. Maybe you are just inherently dumb and undereducated or you live in a very funny country where the laws are pretty messed up.

Trust me, the more people like you arise from beneath some stone in katakombistan, the more people like BB will arise to counter you.
And I have to admit, although I think BBs attitude is pretty fucked up I place my bets on that guy because he gets something done, while you just sit there and provide nothing to enrich the world.

 No.9136

>>9133
Yes, in that case if I see that this artist really needs my support I may donate some money to him not for his work but because I like him as person and want to motivate him and I see that my donation can have some effect on the outcome. But if that artist is already being supported enuogh I will skip him regardless on how much I like his work and rather donate my money to someone who needs it more. But since I am kinda artist myself I think I am supposed to pay by sharing my own work not by doing some irrelevant work to make money just so that I can pay someone for the same stuff which I am doing myself. Wouldn't it be strange if baker woud be buying bread from his competitor instead of just using his own?

In fact many artists use that kind of model already and make very decent money
I guess this guy is making more than any of your elite artists. And all of that from voluntary donations!
www.patreon.com/summertimesaga
unfortunately this is not going to work for niche content because fan base is very low.

I even invented new model of donations myself which I may use in future.

What you described about rich customers is quite correct and that can be used.
My idea is that you can pay for my work to get it like usual or if you don't want to pay you can contact me describe why you don't want to donate even 1$ which is like nothing at all in US and then you will get everything for free along with my private request not to share that with other people online simply because if they want it they can come and ask themselves. That way piracy can be almost totally defeated without hurting anyone. It is preferable to turn your fans into your friends rather than in your enemies.
More common model is to provide early access to paying customers, while the rest will have top wait for some time but they still get same stuff for free.

Another model is to scatter your works all around the internet and then sell them as collection to paying customers, while the rest can try to hunt them themselves like some Pokemon. In that case I consider providing index page of what is available so that people always know what they are missing. Average Joe will spend days or weeks hunting for that stuff, while paying customers will just throw some money and take it all in one package.


I noticed prey much same thing as you describe about time. People who pay usually do not like to interact in any way, they just throw money on you and you will not even know who it was you will not even find out if they liked your work and this is also very frustrating and feels as if you are throwing your effort into black hole.
Those people even treat their own families same way they just shower their children with money and see them once a year.
Fans on the other hand prefer more human interaction they provide some feedback which motivates to work way more than money. Some may even decide to help you in some other ways than paying money.

 No.9137

>>9135
Try to apply some logic to your hateful post:


Ok, so you support the artist and i don't, what effect it has on you or on the artist?

either way nothing will change. preventing me from enjoying his work for free will not make me pay and more likely he will lose money and time on DRM and pissing off paying customers with its bugs.

Yes you are funding the product created by that artist and I am grateful. You pay I use it for free. I hope you do not complain if stray cats loot your trash can and "steal" the food you disposed? Would you care if some squirrel is watching your porn which you just bought from the tree in your back yard?
Situation is totally same here.

All your hate is driven by envy that "How dares someone have something for free when I paid money for that." you do not care about art you care about social status as you want to feel above than other people because you paid for certain exclusive privilege.

I totally know the meaning of copyright. and I described why piracy is nos stealing. you cannot compare it with taking bread from the shop and not paying. it is equivalent to making photo of the bread and walking away without paying.


There are absolutely no problem if more people like BB arise he is making money according to his model and I wish him luck in his business, he totally does not concern me. In fact i see him as competitor because he is kinda driving away people who are willing to pay from artist who post stuff for free.
because if copyright was totally abolished everyone woud be forced to move into donation model so people who rely on that model now woud receive more funding while useless artists who rely in copyright model woud get extinct.

 No.9138

>> 9136
Onix,
I have two Replies for you.
One reply is mean, the other is not so mean.
Since I am convinced you deserve both,
you may get them.
———————————————-
MEAN FIRST:
Onix, during the entire debate between us,
I have dragged you through the mud,
slapped you all over place
and fucked you into every hole your body
might have to offer.

Since this is a guro-board,
I am inclined,
to go get a driller and MAKE you provide
more holes to fuck into.

;))

I've clearly won.
Admit & submit.
———————————————-
NOT-SO-MEAN

In the following I will just quote you
and provide a small comment on that quote.
I think this is the most fair way to respond.
And also the most productive.

[1]
>> My idea is that you can pay for my work to get it like usual or if you don't want to pay you can contact me describe why you don't want to donate[…].

*** Do you believe, that this is pragmatic?

*** Do you think that people (like yourself)
*** Would go that cumbersome route if they
*** could just RIP it off without asking?

*** Are you really able to invest that much
*** time to read all the excuses, that ppl
*** will bring up, just to NOT pay you.
* * Do you think you will believe them?

[2]
>> […]then you will get everything for free along with my private request not to share that with other people online […].

*** hmmm… really? huh?

*** do you think that request of yours
*** will stop people?

[3]
>> Another model is to scatter your works all around the internet and then sell them as collection to paying customers, while the rest can try to hunt them themselves like some Pokemon. In that case I consider providing index page of what is available so that people always know what they are missing

*** I honestly think that this is a
*** cool idea.

*** If your art is good, this will
*** engage people, spawn interest and
*** conversation.

*** as a marketing-strategy: TOP
*** but if this will be a selling-point…
*** … unsure (must be tested)

*** As soon as all of your scattered works
*** are collected in one place (eg: reddit),
*** you lost your selling point.

[4]
>> Average Joe will spend days or weeks hunting for that stuff,[…].

*** Oh… dear… NEVER underestimate the
*** average Joe.
*** Even if the resources of a single Joe
*** might be limited, there are THOUSANDS
*** of them. → Swarm intelligence/coop

[5]
>> People who pay usually do not like to interact in any way, they just throw money on you and you will not even know who it was you will not even find out if they liked your work and this is also very frustrating

*** TOTALLY AGREED!
*** You wouldn't believe how many of the
*** artists, that I consult would love
*** to interact with the people who enjoy their
*** works just to get inspired by the reactions
*** their ideas might provoke.

*** I feel that too from time to time.
———————————————-
CONCLUSION:

You behave like an animal towards other artists,
But you obviously want to be treated as
a human being.
It seems to me that you are wielding a very
two-sided sword, you call moral.
Overthink that.

Some of your ideas concerning money and how
it is made (through donations) are naive,
to be polite.
Personally I wish you the very best with that,
but I honestly believe that it is going to
be hard and painful.
Maybe, if you experience that pain your views
on things might change.
I am open to talk again some time.

The treasure-chase Idea is quite a brilliant
marketing gag. Shortlived but brilliant.
I like it.
I hope you don't mind if I *COPY* that idea?
;P
———————————————
cheers

 No.9145

>>9138
Your psychology skills are very poor if you think like that. You do not understand the situation properly.


Piracy is not just some kind of theft to save money, this is kind of the game. where the stuff you get is achievement and goal of that game.

Do you think that even average Joe will spend weeks just to save some 5$ because he is so stingy beyond any reason?
No, this is not how it works yes I can pay for the works I like but I will not pay in principle because buying spoils that game My HDD like HDD of any other pirate is stuffed with multiple terabytes of content I never even seen and probably forgot to have. Just that when someone posts some site rip I say "yeah great one more thing to add t my collection" take it put it my HDD and either forget or just click through it spending 1 second on each picture.
Sharing something you got is also part of that game.

So you are dealing not with merely some financial stuff, but with a group of people who get more pleasure from the process of pirating way more than from the content they pirate. Some people go as far as even risk their carriers or businesses just for the thrill.


Do you understand that when you somehow prevent someone from getting something you become just the game boss who has to be defeated?
If you want to stop piracy you need to change that situation. instead of being enemy of your fans you should become their friend you have to remove incentives of that game.

1. yes that is totally pragmatic because many people will not be willing to beg for free access and after you gave them free access they will feel very uncomfortable to stab you to the back and hurt you in exchange to you being nice to them. Yes, some may act like assholes but unlike usual prates, they will not receive support from the community with whom they share their loot. Even if that happens it is not that big deal because it will work as an advertisement. People will still come for new content and get it properly.

Speaking about me I will never share content I got from some artist for free unless I know that wahst I do will help his business and this is not a hypothetical issue I have some relationship with commercial content creators. but if I manage to obtain it in another way like by hacking their paywall (or god forbid he forces me to pay) everything will get in public the same day and on the multiple forums at the same time.

Considering the hassle of talking with every cheapskate fan who is not willing to pay that is not a problem for the niche content where you have very few fans anyway. You said yourself you enjoy feedback so make that person give you that feedback you want. Eventually, you can even transform that guy into paying customer because he will feel bad not giving anything in return.

Finally, I do not need any excuses why they are not paying even if someone comes to me and says "Your art sucks you are a piece of shit I just want everything for free" I will say "fine here it is all for you maybe you will change your opinion when you see it". Conscience will eat that person alive after all that


3. there is no way to collect everything in one place because new stuff is appearing regularly. so if you post different series on the different forums you need to track all those forums at once, and if you pay you get everything conveniently in one place.
also, there is no big incentive in collecting stuff to one place for anyone you will not get much praise for that as people who are really interested will get it from the source.
It is extremely uncommon to see such collections unless the artist decides to quit, and then everyone is trying to recover everything asking if someone saved something.

————————————-

I already provided an example of how donations can provide you more than paywalled content.

and speaking about morality I also have a question for you:


If you have one artist who is giving everything for free and asking for donations while another artist is paywalling their content.
And now we have a customer who gives nothing to the artist who does not use paywalls even if he is asking for reasonable compensation for his work, but he properly pays to the artist who is hiding his content behind a paywall.

Don't you see some moral problems here? Isn't this behavior giving incentive for all artist to hide their content behind a paywall, because nice people are being punished?
Imagine if you have one shop where you can freely take the product and just leave money in the box and another shop where everything is heavily guarded by armed thugs.
Does that give you moral right to steal from the shop which trusts you?
And the even worse, if you steal from the shop with no guards but them properly pay in the shop where stuff is protected.

 No.9156

>> 9145

I will need to answer briefly, because I am
at dinner. So I'll be limited to just answer
your question:

YES, my behaviour, and the general
philosophy that I am advertising clearly
aims to motivate artists to
(at least) paywall their
works.

Nowadays,
an artist who is only supported
by donations has to rely heavily on his
fandbase to feel responsible for financial
support.

Problem is,
that nowadays only very few feel
responsible any more and even less folks
put their money where their mouth is.

Furthermore,
An artists is not a beggar, he/she does not
need donations/welfare.
An artist is a craftsman,
who deserves to get paid for his work.
Like your plumber, pilot, taxi-driver etc.
——————————————-
The CUSTOMER, willing to pay content that
is paywalled is very unlikely to withold
donations an a voluntary basis.
Therefore the CUSTOMER makes no difference,
if he shops in the 'free' store or in
the 'protected' store. Statistically he will
spend a comparable amount of money on a
similar product in the 'free' store as he
would be forced to in the 'protected' store.
- Unless he's a bitch.

The Problem I see, when I look at the
(popular) web is:
WHERE ARE THE CUSTOMERS?

- maybe I'm blind,
but I don't see them.

But what I see instead are people ripping
artists work off and artists that struggle
to make a living.

** the few exceptions on both sides
** confirm the rules.


chicken wings, avocado, cheese and grapes.
yummbummbumm…

 No.9158

>>9156
You will not go anywhere with the idea that artist is the same as a plumber because this is totally wrong. an artist is exactly a beggar because nobody really needs his services, he gets paid not because of what he does but because of how he presents himself.

If you compare artist with the plumber you are not gonna hire 20 plumbers to fix your toilet while in case or artists you will happily download works of every artist on earth and possibly find everyone worth something. What matters here is what artists will manage to grab your attention.

also applying same rules to artists as to craftsmen is a bad idea, because if some artist is making $10000 a month giving him extra 5$ will not do anything useful for his productivity or motivation, but giving those same 5$ to the beginner artist who is making 10$ a month will be a huge change. and remember our goal is to distribute money in the way to maximize the amount of content.

also, I disagree that "customer" will spend the same on donations as he spends on paywalled content unless that guy is so filthy rich that money is no issue at all. There is no real limit on the amount of content you want to get so, either way, you will run out of money and you will be forced to choose. and any rational person who cares about finances will spend money on paywalled content while giving nothing or very little to the artists who give stuff for free.
A rational person will not make a decision to forfeit some content he wants just because he wants to donate that money to someone else.
in our topic there cant be such things as "similar product". Every artist is selling unique and exclusive content not available anywhere else so it is by definition a monopoly.
If you want to watch "the Game of thrones" you cant choose from whom you will buy it.



And yes you probably are blind if you don't see "customers". go on parteon.com and look around for how many people are paying money to free and paywalled content and what kind of money people are making there.
So if you don't see any of that you may be really blind


If you are complaining about the lack of customers for guro or other niche content, too bad, there are not that many people interested in that. If you work on that topic you will lack not only customers but even plain fans. It is even hard to find any place where I can post my work without getting banned.

 No.9159

Ok. Done eating.
Lets fire some final shots and go to sleep.

To follow up my reply at >> 9156:

You stated perfectly clear,
that the entire get-stuff-for-free,
including the act of stealing
is your game.
And this game is your experience.

I am Aware,
and everyone else should be aware,
that people like you existed in the
past, exist today, will exist in the
future.
Always.

People like you will not be turned into
paying customers,
honorable citizen,
or well formed characters.
Not by any technology;
Not by any force;
Not by any reason.

Part of my job is to pull people
like you into the spotlight,
expose what/how you are for everyone
to see what they are up against.
It serves a purpose.
I see it as some form of advertisement
for the services I can provide,
since I have figured out to overcome
this kind of 'enemy'.

Well… I think that is kinda my game.

Fortunately, decent people still exist,
even in limited numbers across all
income-classes. I salute that.

As for you, onix, personally… … …
See,
for you,
succeeding ripping off people,
getting stuff for free,
stockpiling other peoples talent on your HDD,
enjoying your experience…
… the game is on YOUR side.
Yes, you win.

For you,
maybe becoming a great artist,
maybe becoming successful in life,
maybe accomplishing something greater than
just enjoying some empty pleasures…
… the game is NOT on your side.
Yes, you will loose,
If you haven't already lost.

Despite one nice idea which needs some
adjustments/refinement,
all your 'inventions' were naive,
impractical or simply without reason.
If you cannot come up with something better
than what you delivered …
>> PRESS START TO GAME OVER <<

Who knows, maybe experiences will change you,
maybe form a little bit of character,
enlight your perspective.


bon voyage & good luck,
you WILL need it.

 No.9160

>>9158
Ok, so art has no intrinsic value because its widely available and AI will be able to do it. It doesnt serve a practical purpose and isnt necessary.

Then lets say 2 possible things happen. 1) google takes a pro copyright stance and 2) websites that are unlawful get destroyed by google by any meand necessary.

Google then creates an AI that reads image data from every game and artwork on DLsite.com, and if a website is found to have a substantial amount of copyrighted comment, theyrr stripped from search results and they are spammed from a thousand different IP addresses until the person hosting the website can no longer afford the associated costs.

In that case, where copyright law suddenly becomes internationally protected, what do you, onix, do? I dont want to hear that youll simply go to the dark web. In the situation that you eitber have to pay for art, deal with the low quality remains of art still on the market after this theorhetical purge, or you have to live without art, which will you do?

I imagine based on what youve said so far youd simply go without guro artwork entirely, but its worth asking to be sure…

 No.9161

>>9160
let's starts with the fact that our behavior or what we believe will not in any way affect copyright laws or google censorship. While considering guro, this is the least important issue simply because we have far bigger problems already. Porn itself is gray area, as in many places it is illegal by itself so for example, I am already a criminal for creating it LOL so how you are going to enforce copyright of illegal content? Maybe child porn producers also could ask google to blacklist pirate copies? LOL

If unlawful websites will be destroyed copyright issue is the least of our concern.

It will make life harder but not that much. The majority of guro content I have is totally legally free. it comes from pixiv artists and its quality is great often in the order of magnitude better than commercial works. So unless guro itself will get banned no problems are going to happen because of copyright laws. Paywalled guro content barely leaks into public at all, there are very few artists and very few subscribers.

So even your hypothetical situation of perfect copyright enforcement is not that scary.

While AI can help to identify copyrighted content, it also can help to defeat DRM remove watermarks and even create new art. imagine if you record a movie with your phone in the shitty quality and AI transforms it into near perfect HD version

let's start with the example that AI can do motion capture just by using your webcam so to create a picture you can just pose it yourself and computer will transform your pose into 3d character.
2d artists are not safe either, because you can feed example pictures to AI and it will create similar pictures. It is already possible just not very common.

This technology is going to change the porn scene a lot, because any ugly old hag will be able to transform herself into the most beautiful loli model right on the webcam without even bothering with makeup.
actors eventually will go entirely virtual and I mean not 3d virtual but AI virtual. where picture is created from the reference not from the model.

Nvidia already created demo racing game where you are driving through the town which is created by the computer with a striking similarity to the real thing. none of the 3d games even closely match that kind of realism. that technology functions in a similar way as the human fantasy it is essentially computer dreaming.

Finally, the most extreme technology is converting text to video you just describe scene and computer draws it for you. this is already in the experimental stage on a small scale. (where you can write a description of the bird and AI will draw it for you)

So the artist profession is in the huge danger of becoming obsolete in the very near future.

With all that my biggest worry is that everything will become so abundant that there will be no reason to collect any stuff at all, you just tell the computer what you want and it creates that thing on the spot.

Obviously in that kind of situation, any form of copyright or censorship will lose any meaning, even any kind of recorded evidence will lose all value because it will be child's play to create 100% realistic video of you having sex with your 3 year old daughter.

 No.9165

Lets push this discussion in a
different direction.
Maybe a more productive one.
————————————————
But before, I would like to loose
some words regarding AI.
As far as we can speak about AI TODAY,
we are technologically limited to two
things:
[1]
Deep learning/epochal statistical
function evolution. To put it simple.

→ This technology is mainly used as
a pattern recognition-, and in a limited
fashion, as a pattern creation system.

[2]
expert systems ala IBM WATSON what can
be described as a knowledgebase that
can be queried.
(very simplified description)

→ This technology is mainly used in
medicine, law agencies, military.

Both technologies could potentially
be used at scale to enforce copyright.
Just feed it some patterns, run it through
eg. googles entire catalog of the open
accessible web (which google obviously has)
and then recognize the patterns fed into
the system, possibly striking specific URIs
in a similar fashion like it is done
on youtube. Remember: Google owns Youtube,
and we saw how 'well' that went.
It clearly overshot the goal google aimed to
achieve.
We see that such a rigerous enforcement
is possible, but a bitch.
But there is no incentive to do so.
Deploying such a system on the web itself
would consume time and resources en mass.
As long as Google has no (commercial)
reason to do so, it won't happen.


But AI drawing pictures, effectively replacing
the work an artist can do?
Well there are toy examples of drawing AI.
It might be possible for AI to produce something
Picasso might have drawn.

But more than that? NO WAY.
———————————————–
MORE PRODUCTIVE:

Turning People like Onix into customers,
as I mentioned earlier, is wether possible
nor worth the efford.

I would take the route to make the monetization
of niche content (guro/fictional snuff etc)
safer approachable by artists and customers
as well.

Platforms like Patreon are very hostile towards
artworks around this niche topic.
Purging them.
Further, these platforms create a tight association
between the Real-Life identity and the already
existing CLEAN online-identity of the creators
and the consumers, mapping them to the 'nasty' stuff.
(eg.: login with facebook,
supply your bank-info,
supply your mobile number, addressinfo etc)

This holds many potential creators and
consumers back.

I would be thrilled to see how someone
tries to sell that he/she is into loli-snuff
to his 500+ facebook-friends or his/her
account manager.
Let me grab some popcorn first. Its gonna be
fun.

We should also be aware that in many conutries
this form of art and their consumption is
illegal.

Therefore I am sure that the currently
available platforms do not represent the full
potential of possible creators and also
possible supporters.

WHAT IT NEEDS…
… might be a spin-off of mentioned platform,
which are safe to use for everyone interested
in this niche.
No tight associations between RL- and external
Online-Identities of creators or supporters.
Payment methods that allow for easy,fast and
unassociated money-transfer between the acting
parties.
(Cryptocurrencies, maybe?)

If something like this existed,
We might get a glimpse on the hidden market
potential of this niche.
From that point on, we could evaluate,
If such a market is able to maintain itself
and how damaging piracy actually is.
———————————————-
DAMAGE OF PIRACY:

I am not sure if piracy immediately affects
the income of an artist, publishing his/her
works in exchange for money.
The example of yiff[dot]party has shown,
that the decrease in monthly revenue the
affected artists suffered was marginal.
The people who only subscribed to 'support'
with the intention of 'liberating stuff from
behind that paywall' weren't supporters in
the first place.
It is unlikely that the artist actually lost
REAL customers.
The smaller artists who were affected and
claimed to have lost everything might just
have been a victim of the Mob that moved
across the entire platform with the only
intention of theft, and therefore the majority
of supporters they had, were only the bitches.

The real damage of piracy is the de-valuation
of the artworks itself.
Art, as long as it yields attributes of
exclusivity, has value.
Value, that can even subsidize money.
In fact, the first prints I ever produced,
I paid in originals, not in money.
Piracy takes away every aspect that defines
the value of the artwork.
This is the reason, why potentially high paying
customers who are interested in obtaining
the artwork AND its value might be absent
on platforms like patreon and also might
be hesitant to invest into art that is in
immediate danger of piracy.




*klick*

 No.9166

File: 1556884285738.png (1.56 MB, 1280x768, stylegan-teaser.png)

>>9165
Here is an example for you of modern computer produced artwork. All of those people are characters created by AI

Pretty significant improvement from Picasso style LOL
Same can be done with anime and cartoons.


It is pretty nice to see how after fucking me into every hole you agreed to most stuff I said. I suppose you got an STD for not using a condom.


But maybe we are also talking about different things entirely because we use the word "art" just to indicate that it is human-made pictures. in relaity, this is mass-produced fapping material or in the best case entertainment with a certain artistic component. What kind of exclusivity do you want in porn?

If you are selling art as real art we are in totally different markets and operate on the different principles.

You are trying to sell fine art in the sex shop and complain about not finding enough customers.

 No.9167

Don't worry about my customers,
I guess I'm doing fine.

If this image represents what floats
your boat,
you don't need AI, boi,
you need facebook.

 No.9169

What I have to say about AI will take to long, so Im going to skip that topic completely. You landed on something good with the meaning of art, ill continue that thread of thought with some of my own:

Genre. Genre is not a static concept, its an amalgam of various items which is labelled after the fact due to their similarity. Pre-AI, every artist is a brick layer and genre is the building, so theres value in pushing the genre a certain direction.

Sub culture: culture is the nature of the discourse between fans of a genre. Lets simply put it like this: were in an ethical void where stealing or not stealing, selling or not selling, none of that matters and theres nothing good or bad about any of it. There are only people, art, and the decisions we make about what we think is good or valuable. It equal parts falls into place by nature and is designed, it is our unspoken set of rules. Paywalling content is bad or freeloading without contributing to the value of the community is bad, these are the types of things a culture decides on.

Community: the actual ebb and flow of those interactions. The person spoken too and the person speaking, the conversations and the spats and the dramas.

Ill suggest that art, and the sale of art, is inpart of value to the community. That buying art is an act of community engagement, of culture engagement. Of making tangible the feeling that youre not alone in your desires more so than just fapping to the desires themselves, in making tangible your desires so you can see and interact with them.

Buying art and supporting artists can be a way to communicate who you are and what you need to yourself.

… … …

On another subject. AI will become better but that only means artists will change. An artist is in the end a story teller. A person who has spent 20 years with a pencil may now have less tactile skill than a modeling program with artificially intelligent shaders that color correct for clarity and beauty… but a person who has worked for 20 years in modelling still creates finer images than others using thst AI.

There are also transferable skills between these items. First of all tactile skills. With 3d scanning a clay modeller can now create a 3d model. But also conceptual. How does the light focus a viewers attention on a locket, what is the story significance of that locket and how is it conveyed through the background and the character design? Computers atleast presently lack the social intelligence to place together a people driven story without atleast being given all the individual pieces, they certainly cant convey a story visually better than even most children. Not from scratch, not withiut great instruction and a library of preset data.

For atleast another decade, maybe 2, artists will exist. They will change, as they have always, but there will still be people of higher skill, craftsmanship, and conceptual understanding than others. These people will continue to be paid.

If its not artist, theyll be game designers. If games become easy to make, theyll be web designers. If all method of conveying story becomes so very simple a child could do it… well, a child can play a game but we still have lets players.

At such a point that art becomes obsolete, the world will be so significantly changed that its not a question of weather artists will be out of the job, but what jobs will become possible for them, what feats theyll reach and what tools theyll have to tell their stories. If it becomes true that theres no value to any stories they can tell…

Well thats a market saturated with creativity where I can freely experience anything. But I still want to experience it in a culture, with other people, and Ill throw down a little cash in the tip jar, at that point, of who ever creates a world with a community I want to be part of.

Well, thats what Id like, but I may also be thinking in that way for my own benefit, since Id like to be the one making that world. Might as well dream big, i guess.

 No.9170

Well, I think, that it's not just a
Dream you have, Reg.
This is maybe how things should be,
and at least partially are today.

Well spoken.

In my opinion, if we want our little
subculture to exist and flourish,
everyone in this subculture is
required to contribute something.
Let it be talent, ideas or
money.
It does not matter, what you
contribute, as long as it serves the
subculture in a productive way.

This act of contribution/participation
should be the ultimate experience.

 No.9171

There is a big difference between supporting someone and buying stuff from someone with the intent to exploit each other as much as possible.
by paying less and getting more. If we operate on this principle where customer and producer are enemies there will be no community or support of any kind
we will only have community or artists who bitch about customers and pirates discussing how to make those fuckers pay more by using various techniques and community of consumers who will be brainstorming ideas on how to get more and pay less.


If you want support, you have to change that situation and change relationship style from enemies to friends.



Speaking about the purpose of AI, it is not created to eliminate humans but to remove any requirement for special skills that you usually need to create artwork or music. With AI everyone becomes an artist, composer and whatever else they want to be so this specialty becomes obsolete.
This changes the basic principle so that producer and customer exchange places, now you make art not so much to please the customer but to express yourself. Now the consumer is providing service to you by consuming what you produce or else nobody will care about all that stuff you make.
Instead of community where fans worship some demigod who can draw now, everyone can make their own work and share with each other using their art as a form of language of advanced communication.

imagine if instead of text roleplay you could just make all those scenes as quick as you can type. or if you could easily express complex ideas with pictures or video that you make during the conversation.

 No.9176

>> 9171

Your understanding about AI,
Its abilities and current
state of development is obviously
very limited.
As is your education.

 No.9177

>> If you want support, you have to change that situation and change relationship style from enemies to friends.

I do not want support for myself.
I am talking about the artist community
in general.

Changing the relationship style between
the producers and the consumers is out of
question, if people (like you) are not
willing to be 'friendly' at the beginning.

discussing you makes no sense to me
any further.
You clearly are the bottom of the barrel,
with an intellect, a toddler would surpass.

You demonstrate the behaviour of a parasite,
not willing and not able to give anything
back to the community/subculture you enjoy
being a part of.

your existence is of no value.

 No.9180

>>9177 not willing and not able to give anything
back to the community/subculture you enjoy
being a part of.


Well, I will seriously disagree here because. I believe I made lost of original content myself what makes me one of the top posters here and even unlike most artists I accept requests and do them for free.
Besides artwork, I made some manga translations and also created an application which can do OCR text recognition on manga.


So you have to invent some better way to insult me. Maybe try to bitch about the quality of my works ;) (It is not that bad either.)

But cosidering the quality of your own posts you look more like a cheap troll who throws random shit on people expecting something to stick.

 No.9182

I've seen a lot of ideas here and on the threads, some posts even managed to amuse me like a person probably high on drugs raising votes for free guro! :) But, I think the correct approach is to support and encourage people to support artists but not help them hide their art behind the paywalls, after some time all pics should be made free! Many gaming and movie companies do this! It keeps the fanbase strong and that's exacly what this community need.We are not exactly a large comunity and more art will attract newcomers and curios people who want to discover new sensation on the internet.That's my oppinion! Long live guro!

 No.9937

I am a completely unashamed pirate. I will not hide or justify that fact. I pirate because I'm cheap and lazy.

But I will never pretend that I am entitled to what I pirate and that someone should make something for me with nothing in return. If I can pirate, cool. If not, oh well.

I support Ayaswan less out of values, but more because their fanbox is cheap for me. I barely notice the money leaving my bank from my subscriptions. It isn't because I'm rich or anything, I just have very few expenses and don't spend a lot.

Plus the other benefit of being a patron to the artists is that I don't have to sit around twiddling my thumbs wondering if someone is going to upload their newest works. Now just waiting for Comiket to allow digital purchases on the day (or at least a week to maybe a month later).

 No.9964

Wow, this thread is enormous!

I do pirate paywalled stuff, but I feel bad about it with my cognitive empathy.

Piracy is a grey area, and capitalism is a grey area.
If I'd earn good amount of money, I'd pay every artist and game developer. But the world isn't exactly fair. Ask artists and game developers.
It makes me look like I'm a fucking Walrus, I ate most oysters, but I at least feel bad about it but I'm not hipocrite.

I see it as stealing. You, or rather we are the bad guys in this scenario.

You are poor? Well, it's still bad. You are rich? Man, you're an asshole.
Simple as that.

But it's just life. I wanna. Commercials say I can have anything. So I wanna. I just wanna. My head is universe. I wanna.

>>9937
Dat asshat gets it.



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